• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 61

    Thread: Matt's Showa Spawn 2016

    1. #1
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747

      Matt's Showa Spawn 2016

      My showa finally spawned yesterday morning, 6/24/2016, after over two months of trying to get them to go. Since last year's Doitsu female caused quite a bit of bad scales issues when matched with my fully scaled males, I used a different female this year. She's a 24" Omasako. I got her at a good price from a friend that wanted an utsuri to show, but a little orange had appeared as she got older. The two males are the redder of the showa that I used last year (a 24" eight year-old) and a 21" ginrin showa that I picked up in 2015, too late for that spawn.

      The spawning occured 3 days after full moon (3/4 moon) with barometric pressure of 29.91 and the water 74 F in the morning. At 5:30 am, they were spawning and seemed to have been going for a little while. I think well over half the eggs got fertilized.

      Background and detail: They are off to a rather late start. I had moved these 3 to the 1800 gallon pond for spawning in April along another male showa and my kin showa that I used last year. I put in the two spawning ropes, 4 small plastic plants stuck in rocks, and two fake 6' leafy garlands. But unseasonably cool weather kept the water temperature well below 70 F all the way until June 9. It has been rather hot since then. Still, the heat, several 25% water changes, and a thunderstorm with over half an inch of rain did not get them to spawn. Next I tried adding a second female, my Doitsu from last year, to try to get something going. Four days passed and still no interest. So on the evening of 6/22/2016, I went with a Plan B, to try to spawn kujaku in the 1800 gallon pond. But I did not completely give up on the showa, moving these 3 to the tub (500 gallons, only filled to 350), and moved the other 3 back to the big pond. I only put 25% of the spawning material in the tub, leaving the rest in the little pond for the kujaku. A day and a half later, the showa spawned and the kujaku did not. So I moved the kujaku back to the big pond (12,000 g), and moved a majority of the eggs to the little pond. I returned the showa to the big pond after a 2 hour bath in 100 gal of 0.3% salt. Here are some after-spawning photos of them just before putting them back into the big pond.

      Name:  3 showa4 6-24-2016.JPG
Views: 831
Size:  64.5 KB Name:  3 showa6 6-24-2016.JPG
Views: 830
Size:  72.8 KB Name:  3 showa7 6-24-2016.JPG
Views: 825
Size:  96.5 KB Name:  Rachel1 6-24-2016.jpg
Views: 817
Size:  59.9 KB Name:  Patch1 6-24-2016.JPG
Views: 821
Size:  57.5 KB Name:  Shofar 6-24-2016.JPG
Views: 819
Size:  48.4 KB
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-25-2016 at 04:06 PM.

    2. #2
      Wombat's Avatar
      Wombat is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2013
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      366
      Better late than never. Should expect some nice fry from that group. What's your feeding plan? good luck mate!

    3. #3
      delbert's Avatar
      delbert is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2013
      Location
      NE Arkansas 7a
      Posts
      2,316
      Congrats Matt .... Im glad they got it done for you



    4. #4
      Steve Sibly is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2015
      Location
      Perth W.A
      Posts
      121
      Hi Matt,

      Awesome all the best for your Raising/Growing stage

    5. #5
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Thanks Wombat, Delbert, and Steve for the well wishes. As for what to feed them, I had figured on going with my usual powdered pellets and yeast for a while, but getting them on a higher protein paste similar to Wombat's recipes just as soon as they seem to be able to take it. But unfortunately, I may not be having to worry about that with this group.

      For whatever reason, the numbers that hatched seem to have been very small. She laid a whole lot of eggs, and I thought from looking at them that a pretty good percentage got fertilized. But after three and a half days with water in the mid-70's F. I'm finding very few fry. By running a 6" tropical fish net around bottom of tub about 3 times, one can dip up about 20 fry, when it should be many hundreds. It is worse in the little 1800 g pond, where it is very difficult to find even one or two fry. Dipping along the bottom, I'm not finding dead fry, just lots of bad eggs and occasional live fry.

      I don't know what the problem is. I had gotten the ammonia down to trace levels in the tub and little pond. The same goes for nitrite in the little pond. It was higher, about 0.6 ppm, in the tub, but there seem to be more hatchlings there.

      One wild guess concerns the lack of good filter media and moving most of the eggs. This theory is that when I used a net to move most of the eggs from the tub to the little pond, it caused lots of egg clumps to form as they stuck together. Then as the unfertilized eggs decayed, they caused the fertile ones touching them to go bad. In the tub, there had been no spawning ropes, as they had been in the little pond with the kujaku. Most of the eggs did not seem to adhere very well to the artificial plants that were in the tub. So most of the eggs piled up on the bottom. This was worsened by the strong current pushing most of the eggs over to one side. So as the theory goes, the bad eggs then caused most of the good eggs to go bad.

      I've yet to decide if I will try spawning another group this year. I may think on it for a bit, and see how it goes with the few that I've got.

    6. #6
      Arid's Avatar
      Arid is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2013
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      283
      Sorry to her that Matt. Do you have enough fry to work with or are you back to square one? Shame, I was looking forward to watching this lot grow.

    7. #7
      Wombat's Avatar
      Wombat is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2013
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      366
      That's a shame Matt I would have expected some nice fish from them three. I never try to hatch eggs that have settled on the bottom of the tub as in the past I've found they seldom hatch. Fungus will always destroy clumped eggs and it spreads fast to those more spaced out on the bottom. It's a case of not enough water movement and lack of O2 around the eggs. That paste can be liquidised by adding more fluid like orange juice or milk and blending until liquid. You can also add yeast and next time I am going to add some seaweed extract. You don't need to feed too much of this stuff at a time.

    8. #8
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Thanks Arid. I really can't tell just yet how many I have in the tub. They are so small, and down low in the water. I tried moving a small net slowly to dip up some of the bad egg clumps, and when I did, I also netted up about 10 fry each time. If one can extrapolate that proportion over the whole tub, there might be over 100 fry, hopefully a few hundred, but I suspect that's unlikely.

      As for the little pond, I used a couple of nets all over it cleaning up eggs and debris. And in multiple dippings, I found only two fry, which I moved to the tub with the others. I suppose there may be a few more fry in the little pond, but I would not be surprised if it were less than ten. So it is pretty well cleaned out and ready for another spawning group this coming weekend if I decide to move one in there.

      Quote Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
      ... I never try to hatch eggs that have settled on the bottom of the tub as in the past I've found they seldom hatch. Fungus will always destroy clumped eggs and it spreads fast to those more spaced out on the bottom. It's a case of not enough water movement and lack of O2 around the eggs ....
      Thanks for confirming that my "wild guess" may really be the main problem with this spawn. It is a hard lesson to learn, but it does help to know what it was so that it can be avoided in the future. In retrospect, I should have put one of the spawning ropes in with the showa instead of leaving both of them with the kujaku. I really did not expect the showa to spawn, since they had passed on so may opportunities.

    9. #9
      niceshowa is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2012
      Location
      Portsmouth,UK
      Posts
      177
      I am very interested in your lack of fertility, as I have had four good spawnings this year with zero fertility! But something you said in passing a thunderstorm could not get them going, could it be acid rain the cause of low fertility? I live in UK and we have had loads of rainfall this year! Any chemists or acid rain experts reading this care to comment? Glad you have some fry to grow on got to be a Grand Champion in there! All the best.

    10. #10
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Quote Originally Posted by niceshowa View Post
      ... could it be acid rain the cause of low fertility? I live in UK and we have had loads of rainfall this year! Any chemists or acid rain experts reading this care to comment?
      Thanks NS. In my case at least, I don't think it could be acid rain. I occasionally check my KH (alkalinity) and buffer the PH with baking soda if the KH gets below say 60 ppm or if heavy rain is expected.

      Also, the area up-wind from us to the west and southwest is somewhat sparsely populated and not very industrial for over a thousand miles. Rain is usually more acidic in places that are more highly populated and more industrial or have such areas in places that are up-wind (prevailing winds).

      2.5 pounds of baking soda added to 10,000 gallons of pond water raise KH about 20 ppm or so. [See the "Koi Calculators" feature on this site.] And in my area 3 inches of rain will usually lower the KH about 20 ppm. You may see the rain make a larger impact in the UK.

      If you search the web for "acid rain" and "map", you can find maps showing it is worse in the northeastern US, England, and northern Europe, although I would not be surprised if eastern China were highlighted on newer acid rain maps.
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-30-2016 at 12:17 AM.

    11. #11
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      At 12 days old, the showa fry are about 5/8" to 3/4" and seem healthy. The total count was under 200, counting a very few that somehow eluded the net in the little pond. I went through them today, only keeping the dark ones, which were about 25%. So now there are around 40, and I put them in the little pond which has a carpet of algae and lots of tiny aquatic life to supplement their diet. Odds are against getting even one nice koi with these numbers, but we will see. At this stage, they are not much to look at, but for the record, here are a few of them:

      Name:  showa fry 7-7-2016 12 days a.JPG
Views: 671
Size:  48.1 KB

    12. #12
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      For a week or so, I have been supplementing their yeast and powdered pellet food by melting a small amount of the paste (a variation of Wombat's recipes) each morning and drizzling it around the edges of the pond. Today the fry are 3 weeks old, and I set out a little chunk on a plate. Within a couple of hours, several had found it. This particular batch is roughly 40% salmon, 25% sardines, 15% English peas, 15% pumpkin, and 5% garlic powder. It is mostly shady, and I found it hard to focus the camera with the partial glare, but you can see what they are doing. I checked back two hours later, and this chunk was gone, with about 8 fry on the plate cleaning the residue. Given their age and small numbers, I'm surprised they found it and ate it all so fast.

      Name:  showa fry 7-17-2016 22 days b.JPG
Views: 625
Size:  33.5 KB Name:  showa fry 7-17-2016 22 days c.JPG
Views: 629
Size:  33.9 KB Name:  showa fry 7-17-2016 22 days a.JPG
Views: 632
Size:  36.6 KB
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-17-2016 at 04:07 PM.

    13. #13
      Wombat's Avatar
      Wombat is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2013
      Location
      Australia
      Posts
      366
      Nice to see you got some to play with hope you end up with a few with potential. No worries feeding now the are taking paste type foods just pump it into them and they will power on.

    14. #14
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Quote Originally Posted by Wombat View Post
      Nice to see you got some to play with hope you end up with a few with potential. No worries feeding now the are taking paste type foods just pump it into them and they will power on.
      Yeah I've been amazed at how much high protein mix they can put away. At 4 weeks, most are 1.5-2, and seem to all be in the 1.25" to 2.5 (~3 to 6 cm) range. Looking close, I can see black and light gray on the utsuri, with some yellow or light orange added in on the showa. Wouldn't any ginrin be visible at this size? I am not seeing any, which makes me doubt that the trait got passed on from the ginrin male. [Note added: About a week later, I started noticing a small number of ginrin ones.]
      Last edited by Matt24; 07-31-2016 at 12:26 AM.

    15. #15
      Steve Sibly is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2015
      Location
      Perth W.A
      Posts
      121
      Hi Matt,

      Nice work mate growing well for a young age

    16. #16
      Big Tancho is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      Location
      st.charles mo.
      Posts
      120
      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Yeah I've been amazed at how much high protein mix they can put away. At 4 weeks, most are 1.5”-2”, and seem to all be in the 1.25" to 2.5” (~3 to 6 cm) range. Looking close, I can see black and light gray on the utsuri, with some yellow or light orange added in on the showa. Wouldn't any ginrin be visible at this size? I am not seeing any, which makes me doubt that the trait got passed on from the ginrin male.
      4 weeks old and 1.5 -2 '' NICE....sorry to hear about the loss matt. wombat is correct on the eggs issue..i had issues also this year. VERY late spawn...when mine had eggs she threw way to many for me to handle this year..i had 4 hanging sheets of egg mats that were so full i almost made the mistake of trying to hatch to many. with 4 tubs @100 gal .. i still could not handle all the eggs.. i ended up with 40000 fry. then the hail storm hit here...i never saw grapefruit size hail in my life...[new roof. truck gutters etc. etc got hit hard lost 20000 when the air pump / filter got hammered. then lost half of them due to power outage. got the generator up and running.. saved some..had about 4000 fry left.. i sure would like the recipe on the food your feeding...

    17. #17
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Thanks Steve. I guess one upside to low hatch rate is that everybody has more to eat. And the hot weather helps too.

      Quote Originally Posted by Big Tancho View Post
      ... then the hail storm hit here...i never saw grapefruit size hail in my life...[new roof. truck gutters etc. etc got hit hard lost 20000 when the air pump / filter got hammered. then lost half of them due to power outage. got the generator up and running.. saved some..had about 4000 fry left..
      Good grief, I can't imagine hail like that! Good thing you were not out in it! But even after all that, 4000 from one spawn sounds pretty good to me.

      Quote Originally Posted by Big Tancho View Post
      ... i sure would like the recipe on the food your feeding...
      This batch I mentioned above was roughly 40% salmon, 25% sardines, 15% English peas, 15% pumpkin, and 5% garlic powder mixed up in the blender and frozen in zip-lock bags. I've tried several similar variations over the past year since I read Wombat's recipes. I sometimes use chub mackeral, herring, or tuna for the seafood part. I don't always include the garlic. Sometimes I mix in powdered koi pellets that I pulverize in a coffee grinder. Last year's group of fry was really growing slow, but that got a lot faster when I introduced this stuff. A couple of other folks here tried it too.

    18. #18
      Big Tancho is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2012
      Location
      st.charles mo.
      Posts
      120
      i was in the pond when it hit....one hit close i just thought it was a soft ball from the neighbors house...i was wrong...another hit close i picked it up looked like a maze from mid evil times.. so i was heading out fast ..i put a bucket over my head 2 seconds later im in the bottom sucking water...bucket was shattered. i got a huge pop knot..lol....so much for that...40 % salmon.. fresh im guessing? 25% sardines...what kind? packed in ? 15% fresh English peas? or caned.pumpkin humm im guessing caned ?5%garlic powder ...no salt. i bet this is gonna smell wicked....wombat sounds like a cool guy. im gonna try this as soon as i get the facts right...THANKS guys..

    19. #19
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      747
      Yikes! Glad to hear you did not wind up "sleeping with the fishes".

      Yes, between all the fish and the garlic, the odor is rather noticeable. I do all the mixing out on the patio. My wife GAVE me my very own food processer just for this purpose.

      Right or wrong, to this point I've been using canned seafood, peas, and pumpkin. I prefer the seafood packed in water, but at times I have used some sardines packed in olive oil. I don't know if the brands matter, but I have used Crown Prince and King Oscar. Once we had some big cans of sardines in tomato sauce. I wasn't sure that would be good, so I hosed the sardines off before I mixed them in. Rather than garlic salt, I have used McCormick's Garlic Powder. However the batch I just mixed up a week ago has 10 oz (~7% of the mix) of garlic cloves from our garden, chopped up. Seems like no matter what I put it the mix, they can't get enough of it. This has never caused a water quality problem for me, but I should note that I mainly feed this in an 1800 gallon pond with established filtration. The effect on water in a smaller tub may differ.

      In my showa thread from last year at http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...owa-spawn-2015, check out posts #28, 33, 70, 96, 98, 106, & 132 where Wombat provided lots of recipe and feeding tips.

      By the way, last week I mentioned that I was not seeing any ginrin, but now I am starting to notice a small number of ginrin, perhaps on about 10% of them.

    20. #20
      delbert's Avatar
      delbert is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2013
      Location
      NE Arkansas 7a
      Posts
      2,316
      keep up the good work ...Matt



    Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •