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Thread: Using a liner for stream/waterfall

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    stream/waterfall questions

    I am going to add a stream/waterfall to my pond. Would you suggest lining this area, or keep it mud like the rest of the pond?

    Heres the pond:
    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...rited-mud-pond
    Last edited by tinyfisher; 04-21-2016 at 09:29 AM. Reason: modified title due to additional questions

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    I think that if you put one in without a liner, erosion will create a different stream/waterfall than you envision. It doesn't need the liner to keep water in the sytem, but to control the erosion issues. Water created the Grand Canyon and will attempt to do the same with your yard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
    I think that if you put one in without a liner, erosion will create a different stream/waterfall than you envision. It doesn't need the liner to keep water in the sytem, but to control the erosion issues. Water created the Grand Canyon and will attempt to do the same with your yard.


    And the silt washed from the stream path will also end up suspended in the pond till it can settle. I'm not sure how well the water
    would actually be held in the stream either... unlike the pond the stream bed is probably not able to hold the water as well and much
    would depend on how much the water is allowed to "sit" in the stream and the make up of the soil. I'd use a liner.
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    You guys confirmed what I was suspecting, thank you. Liner it is.

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    Another question, what should I use as a prefilter? Would a leaf basket/priming pot before the pump be sufficient? My water typically has a lot of suspended material (even with no Koi yet), will the priming pot remove this, and if not will the pump be able to handle this? If not, what would be a good option for a prefilter?

    I'm looking to move 3-5k GPH for the stream/waterfall.

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    You really need to have something better before the priming pot, like a vortex, settlement chamber, sieve, or RDF to catch the majority of the fines. I think the priming pot will catch anything that would hurt the pump, but it will clog quickly and allow a fair amount of fine material through to the next filter component.
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    I would not plan on any filtration after the pump, the only purpose for a prefilter would be to protect the pump. My understanding is that trying to filter a mud pond is a losing battle.
    Last edited by tinyfisher; 04-21-2016 at 08:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    Another question, what should I use as a prefilter? Would a leaf basket/priming pot before the pump be sufficient? My water typically has a lot of suspended material (even with no Koi yet), will the priming pot remove this, and if not will the pump be able to handle this? If not, what would be a good option for a prefilter?

    I'm looking to move 3-5k GPH for the stream/waterfall.
    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    I would not plan on any filtration after the pump, the only purpose for a prefilter would be to protect the pump. My understanding is that trying to filter a mud pond is a losing battle.
    Like Rich said, if the "suspended material" is any bigger than silt, it'll clog a priming pot basket quickly. But the priming pot will not remove anything smaller than
    the holes in the basket.
    If you can gravity feed a 55 gallon barrel with a type of mechanical filter that would basically "supersize" the area of the priming pot basket, you'll be able to
    extend the time you have to clean it. When algae is flourishing in my upper pond my circuit that has only a skimmer directly to a priming pot/ ES3500 pump to a s/g filter,
    the priming pot needs to be cleaned about every 2 days to maintain flow. Think about how small that little basket is compared to what you could put in a 55 gallon barrel.
    It needs frequent cleaning if it's going to be catching a large amount of debris.
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    Thank you for the responses. Would a 55 gallon barrel static filter work, maybe using something like K1 as the media? Since I'm just looking to protect the pump, would there be a better/more cost effective media option? I'm guessing I would have to flush frequently, so easy cleaning is a must.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    Thank you for the responses. Would a 55 gallon barrel static filter work, maybe using something like K1 as the media? Since I'm just looking to protect the pump, would there be a better/more cost effective media option? I'm guessing I would have to flush frequently, so easy cleaning is a must.
    Honestly I think K1 would be a nightmare to clean. It seems to glob onto stringy algae and I'd think you'd be trying to pick the
    stuff off forever. Nothing is going to be easy, but bacti-twist was the most effective thing I tried and even though it was messy,
    it wasn't too hard to remove and spray clean.
    I'd put some in a container and then put that inside a 55 gallon barrel with a 3" drain on the bottom of the barrel to be able to flush to
    waste easily. Where your pond is primarily for retention and runoff, I suspect the pump be flowing more than what would normally
    allow debris to "settle" in the 55 gallon barrel (about 2k gph max), but it should stop debris from reaching your pump and
    give you more time before cleaning than just the priming pot. But like you said, you want to make it as easy as you can to clean (big drain on the
    bottom of the 55 gallon barrel) because with all the leaves and such in the pond you'll be doing it often I suspect. Here's some examples:

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    Thanks (again!) for all of your help. Trying to get everything sorted out before I start, trying to do it right the first time! See my tag line for any additional questions!

    OK, so this may be a bit of a stretch, but would it be possible to set up the barrel similar to a S&G filter, but just use the bacti-twist as the media instead of the gravel and sand? Would it clean similarly with an air manifold and waste outlet? Or am I better off with a "settlement" chamber and a separate container inside for the media (as suggested in your examples)? Is more media better, or is more media just harder to clean? No matter which way I go, a bottom waste valve is a must for sure.

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    I was planning on having a stream connect my ponds and somewhere here someone said to lay the liner then a bed of cement and then embed flat rocks in the wet cement. Makes it easy to clean and it will look natural. No gravel to gather junk. Too bad you're not closer, I have a bunch of 3' wide liner to get rid of. Changed plans for the 300th time after reading all these posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    Thanks (again!) for all of your help. Trying to get everything sorted out before I start, trying to do it right the first time! See my tag line for any additional questions!

    OK, so this may be a bit of a stretch, but would it be possible to set up the barrel similar to a S&G filter, but just use the bacti-twist as the media instead of the gravel and sand? Would it clean similarly with an air manifold and waste outlet? Or am I better off with a "settlement" chamber and a separate container inside for the media (as suggested in your examples)? Is more media better, or is more media just harder to clean? No matter which way I go, a bottom waste valve is a must for sure.
    I've seen filters built with packed bacti-twist alone (or before bacti they were stuffed with poly strapping) and you can clean them just like s/g filters with air and a waste port
    slightly below the normal pond return... but how well it will work I think depends on what you anticipate collecting in it. If it's coming from a BD or an egress point that will be
    collecting leaves, string algae, and other debris that would become entangled in the media, it probably would be better to use a design like a settlement chamber where
    it is separated in basically an empty chamber where it could be flushed pretty easily. But if it's going to collect finer debris which air alone could clean the media in a barrel full
    of poly strapping or bacti-twist, then I think it'd work great. It just depends on what you want it to do.
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    Yeah, I'm only on about version 50, so I have a ways to go to catch you ski!

    I will definitely be collecting leaves, string algae, and duckweed, so I will keep it as a container of media inside a settlement chamber. Thanks!

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    Also, do you have a good recommendation for a hole size to use with bacti-twist? Will the standard holes on 4" drain pipe work?

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    OK, what size BT? I see reference to #300 for a prefilter situation, but on the LWS site it references sizes by "medium" "thick" etc. I'm guessing "thick" would be the size I need?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    Also, do you have a good recommendation for a hole size to use with bacti-twist? Will the standard holes on 4" drain pipe work?
    I'm not sure what type of drain pipe you're using, but I drilled large holes and then covered it with small screen that I had for the internal prefilter pipe and then the prefilter
    container itself I drill 3/4" holes randomly in it. The more the merrier. You don't want small holes that will clog up, you want the bacti-twist to do the catching, not the
    holes in the prefilter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinyfisher View Post
    OK, what size BT? I see reference to #300 for a prefilter situation, but on the LWS site it references sizes by "medium" "thick" etc. I'm guessing "thick" would be the size I need?
    I used the medium. It's all I ever used so I'm not sure if another size would be better.
    Last edited by icu2; 05-11-2016 at 12:48 PM. Reason: better pic of internal pipe
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    Thanks again Steve! I guess I was having a hard time gauging the size of the BT. I was referring to 4" PVC drain pipe, which I believe has 1/2" holes, so sounds like I'm good there. I think I get the idea now, just need to find the time to run some pipe and do some digging!

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    OK, sorry to be the guy asking a million questions, but here's some more.

    I'm sold (at the moment) on using a 55 gallon barrel with a smaller barrel inside with bacti-twist as the static media. Since this will be gravity fed, I will need to place the filter at pond level (as previously recommended, 1" above max pond level). Should I just bury the barrel when I have it all assembled? Would I be better off building a filter pit (cinder block lined?)? Seems like I'm going right back where I started!

    To feed the filter, I would probably use a mid-water pickup due to the fluctuating pond level. What would be a good critter-safe screen? Could I just route grooves/drill holes in the pickup pipe, similar to the outlets on the above static filters?

    Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to my questions thus far. I promise I will take pictures when I get past the research phase!

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