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    Thread: Upside down young koi

    1. #1
      Casummer is offline Junior Member
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      Upside down young koi

      Hi Everyone, I've been begging for help in the health and illness forum for months and someone over there suggested I try you guys. My original posts over there is Young KoI in Trouble and it has all the obvious
      basics.
      Has anyone else had a batch of fry/young fish lose motor function and have boyancy issues?
      I would SO appreciate any help, I'm losing them one by one and have tried everything I know.

      Thank you!!!

    2. #2
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      Can you give us some more information? How are the fry being housed? What type of filtration? Water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH and PH. How old are the fry? Can you upload a video?

      Cheryl

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      Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl View Post
      Can you give us some more information? How are the fry being housed? What type of filtration? Water parameters for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH and PH. How old are the fry? Can you upload a video?

      Cheryl
      Hi Cheryl, I have posted a ton of information in the emergency forum. Can you tell me how to link it to this forum? I apologize, I haven't figured out this site's functions yet.

    4. #4
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    5. #5
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      After reading your other post, it seems a lot of people have replied with a lot of good information. I can't really add much to what has been said, but I would say the problem stems from a water quality issue most likely, Koi as with most fish do not tolerate change well, young Koi are especially susceptible, survival of the fittest so they say, the smaller the volume of water, the harder it is to keep stable, more frequent smaller water changes are better than larger weekly changes. I would do daily 10% water changes and check parameters daily, before the water change, vacuum out any uneaten food daily as well. Raising fry is not an easy task for sure!

      Cheryl

    6. #6
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Casummer View Post
      ... Has anyone else had a batch of fry/young fish lose motor function and have boyancy issues?
      I would SO appreciate any help, I'm losing them one by one and have tried everything I know.
      Hi Summer. Very sorry to hear of all your troubles with little koi health. I've got an idea how that feels. I raised a spawn of young koi each of the last 4 years (3 successfully). One year I lost almost all of the one by one over many months, never finding (at least with much certainty) the true cause. Chemical tests looked fine, no parasites seen in the microscope. I can't say I ever saw them swimming upside down. I would just go out to the pond and find a couple dead, occasionally one struggling at the surface with little body control. [There had been no cold weather.]

      This may be a long shot, but something it could not hurt to check and perhaps rule out, and that is chloramine in your water supply. Some cities may use it from time to time, and it stays in the water longer than chlorine. From my perceived experience, chloramine seems to affect different koi differently. One or two koi might die, while a few koi may act lethargic, and the rest of the koi seem to be fine. Also, small koi seem to be more vulnerable to it and more likely to die. Below is the relevant part of a note I posted last year in another thread:

      *******************
      ... I had mentioned wanting to find inexpensive tests for chloramine. Well, I found some test strip kits (for ~50 tests) around $10-$15 in stores that sell pool supplies. I saw that my tap water has very little if any free chlorine, but about 3 ppm total chlorine. I understand chloramine is total chlorine minus free chlorine. So the chloramine is about 3 ppm here. I am finding that some chloramine removing products target a lower chloramine concentration. So more product is needed than the instructions say. Some products indicate the ppm level that the product treats and some do not. If your chloramine levels are anything like mine, you may need to use more product. But the stuff can be expensive, so to me, it makes sense to get a kit to know about how much product I need to use. Some chloramine removing products seem to fall short of claims and some dechlorinators that don't even claim to remove chloramine actually seem to remove some.

      Bottom line: Koi keepers that use a public water supply may want to run a test on a 100 gallon tub to see how high the chloramine is and how effective their treatment product really is, and it might be good to check occasionally, because some cities may change their treatment levels from year to year or from season to season.
      *******************

      One other precaution I usually take when I do water changes is to trying to keep them small, not too much in a single day, maybe 5%, or 10% at most. But if your chloramine level is lower, you may not have to worry about that.

      Matt

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      *******************
      ... I had mentioned wanting to find inexpensive tests for chloramine. Well, I found some test strip kits (for ~50 tests) around $10-$15 in stores that sell pool supplies. I saw that my tap water has very little if any free chlorine, but about 3 ppm total chlorine. I understand chloramine is total chlorine minus free chlorine. So the chloramine is about 3 ppm here. I am finding that some chloramine removing products target a lower chloramine concentration. So more product is needed than the instructions say. Some products indicate the ppm level that the product treats and some do not. If your chloramine levels are anything like mine, you may need to use more product. But the stuff can be expensive, so to me, it makes sense to get a kit to know about how much product I need to use. Some chloramine removing products seem to fall short of claims and some dechlorinators that don't even claim to remove chloramine actually seem to remove some.

      Matt
      Actually, chloramine is a blend of chlorine and ammonia. The products used need to be used in sufficient quantities to split the chlorine and the ammonia, and then to bind the chlorine. Some will bind the ammonia, and this is needed if there is not a good bio filter to consume the ammonia portion.

      As mentioned chloramine is more persistent than chlorine, so will do damage for a longer period of time if not split and treated. Both chloramine and chlorine oxidize biological materials, and gills are sensitive biological materials so it very well could be due to high levels of either chlorine or chloramine in the source water not being sufficiently treated. A test of the water that has been treated will show ammonia if the water was treated with chloramine, and not show if if chlorine alone was used in the treatment.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    8. #8
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      Thanks Rich, I agree. And where you mentioned ...

      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      ... Both chloramine and chlorine oxidize biological materials ...
      ... I did not know how they attack biological materials, other than that they kill microbes and sometimes fish.

    9. #9
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      Hi Matt, I can't thank you enough for giving me something else to at least test to try to help these little guys. Could you please tell me the name of the chloramine test kit that you used, so I can go hunt it down asap!

      I know the tendency of most of the folks on the three forums I've sought help from. has been to write my dilemma off as water quality or some other amateur error, but I have invested a ton of time, research, money, and love into trying to figure this out. I've paid "experts" to come scrape them, I've scraped them, and I've tried a variety of salting levels and a long, long list of different medications. NOTHING has seemed to make any difference. It has been excruciating to watch my little one perish day by day and feel so alone and helpless trying to save them. I'm honestly not slacking or skimping in any way on behalf of their needs, it's been like having a second full time job since they hatched last April. I'm often up until 2am cleaning a filter, doing water change, staring into a microscope or research for some glimpse of hope for these guys.

      I find it so hard to accept that with all these koi enthusiast, no one but me has had this happen or seen it before. I will say also that it is not a water temperature issue, as some have suggested. I live in Sonoma county in Northern California and the coldest shift these guys have had were a few chilly days and nights last September or October. Right after someone raised the possibility I constructed a full surround greenhouse and added heaters to all now 15 grow out tanks, keeping them between 75-80 degrees 24 hours a day. Yes, my electricity bill is as high as my mortgage every month! But I'm responsible for these beautiful fish and I'm not giving up on doing whatever I can to try and save them.

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Casummer View Post
      ... Could you please tell me the name of the chloramine test kit that you used, so I can go hunt it down asap!
      I see that you are going to great lengths Summer. So I know if those little ones can make it through this, they are in good hands. Since the test strips were rather cheap, I picked up two brands to compare the test results. They were real easy to find at the first two places I looked, the Leslie's Swimming Pool Supplies store down the street and the pool supplies section at Home Depot. So I'd bet you could get one most anywhere pool supplies are sold. Here is the one from Leslie's, which has lots of stores in CA, and I see they will ship it if needed.
      http://www.lesliespool.com/leslies-c...es-2977-12.htm
      The test kit from Home Depot simply says "Pool Water Test Strips". Surely that's not the brand name. Maybe the name was on part of the package that I threw away.

      I'm no chemistry expert, but I've seen various sites say basically to subtract free chlorine from total chlorine to estimate chloramine. For example:
      http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...-O-fugtU8_sQKQ
      says, "There is no direct chemical method for measuring chloramine. Chloramine is indirectly estimated by calculating from the results of total and free chlorine. Since total chlorine is the sum of free chlorine and chloramine, the chloramine therefore is total chlorine less free chlorine."

      I just tested my tap water again and saw the free chlorine level was too low to show up, practically zero, but the total chlorine level was about 2 or 3 ppm depending on which test kit I used. Hope this helps. I guess no koi keeper wants high chloramine in their water supply, but if that is the issue, it would sure be good to know.

      Matt

    11. #11
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      Thanks again Matt, I'll be off to the pool store or Home Depot in the morning! I'll keep chasing down every lead in hopes that one will eventually save my remaining little ones.

    12. #12
      ademink's Avatar
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      Summer, is there any chance of run off from anything that could possibly be causing poisoning or anything?
      Andrea
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    13. #13
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      H Andrea, no chance of run off, they are in new tanks raised 3' , inside a greenhouse. No watering or chemical use in there area at all.

    14. #14
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      Seems to me I heard something similar like that with fish culture when I was in grad school (i was in Marine Chemistry, not fisheries) and it was viral (nodavirus??). Anyways, good luck figuring it out.

    15. #15
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      http://www.agriculture.gov.au/pests-...ness/nodavirus

      I believe you've got something similar to this Summer.. or had- rather. I have been checking out the forums and even older posts to read up on koi problems- since I've had some very unfortunate losses myself. And I came across yours. I offer no advice, but I'd take what Kurtg had mentioned and look into it. Seems pretty severe- I don't know though. How many fish ended up making it and what did you do with them?
      Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out. Proverbs 20:5 Asv

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