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    Thread: Looks pretty terminal…Is this a tumor?

    1. #1
      sandthemall's Avatar
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      Looks pretty terminal…Is this a tumor?

      Very sad to see this happen as this was the first koi I bought a little over 3 years ago. He completely stopped growing this year at sansai. I have some nisai that have eclipsed this Tancho. Last year this time he became shy during feeding…and just never got up to feed until the last few minutes. This year the water kept unusually green during our long summer (I have no UV). The water cleared up a bit yesterday…just enough that I could see that the left gill was fat. So I bowled him today and was astonished to see how bad it was. This fish once had a nice body line for a male…it is quite skinny now. There is no deterioration of any fin. My pond is at my folk's house. Although I only visit about twice a week, I never miss a weekly filter maintenance and I test religiously…In fact, I love testing the water. I think I would have caught this early had the water been clearer.

      Parameters have always been good:
      Ammonia:0
      pH: rock steady 84
      Nitrite: 0
      Nitrate: usually 20ppm, occasionally peaks at 40
      hardness: 6 drops

      4,000 gallons with 5k gallons per hour turnover
      aerated bottom drain + skimmer >Ultrasieve III > pump > Ultima 10,000 > bakki shower
      constant trickle at 4 gallons per hour + 10% water change weekly

      Questions:
      Is this a tumor?
      If not, what is it?
      How do I treat it? I could not find anything in my koi disease book to match it.
      Is it contagious?
      Is it terminal?

      Any help would greatly be appreciated.

      Current behavior:
      very timid…doesn't make appearances often.
      Swims a little weighted toward the offended gill.
      Eats sporadically…usually very shy during feeding. Was once bold during feeding.
      Occasionally takes a gulp of air near the aerated boil at the surface. I suppose the blocked gill makes it difficult to breathe.


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    2. #2
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      more pictures
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    3. #3
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      Oh, my stocking density is 6 fish all under 22 inches in 4k gallons.
      I get a little foam near the waterfall about 2 hours after feeding but this usually dissipates to a few errant bubbles after another 2 hours.

      Is the cause of this poor husbandry on my part or is this genetic?

    4. #4
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      Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments.

      Being honest, I have never seen anything like it in the gills. Do you have something like oil of cloves to sedate it?

      Years back my kha presentation was on Lymphocytis. Seems acriflavin was worth a try. Looking back

      http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...phocystis.html

      Quote Originally Posted by Spike Cover View Post

      Hi Vicki,

      Spike Cover here. First of all Koi and carp don't get lymphocystis. They do get something that looks like it and it is called epitheliocystis which can be successfully treated with Acriflavine.

      However, your problem looks like carp pox to me. If it is, you can heat up your Q tank, salt the water a bit (0.5%), and it will likely go away on its own. Can you get your Q tank up to 80 F? If so, that should really help the situation in just a few days (if it's pox). Carp pox isn't really a pox, it a herpes virus. So, your fish is infected for life and may get recurrences. However, as fish get older, they usually develop immunity which precludes recurrences.

      BTW, here's what epitheliocystis looks like.

      Best regards,
      Spike
      Thanks, Spike...I appreciate your input. That is what I'm doing now...the tank is at about 80-82 degrees with the heat we've been having, so that should help. She's seems to be fine, and I think it even looks a little better already...it's just curious that it's showing up now in the heat of summer. I thought carp pox was a winter/spring thing...

      Vicki
      Last edited by cindy; 11-02-2015 at 11:17 AM.

    5. #5
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    7. #7
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      Thanks for your response Cindy! I hope it's not contagious! I will try to wear gloves and take care around the pond. In the mean time, I'll also try to contact a fish vet.

      I'm a little worried that this may be much worse than I could have imagined!

    8. #8
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      It's also strange that this occurred during the summer! Although I imagine it started much sooner.

    9. #9
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      Wondering what the underside looks like. Sometimes irritated if the fish is staying on the bottom.

    10. #10
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      [QUOTE=sandthemall;2527311]Very sad to see this happen as this was the first koi I bought a little over 3 years ago. He completely stopped growing this year at sansai. I have some nisai that have eclipsed this Tancho. Last year this time he became shy during feeding…and just never got up to feed until the last few minutes. This year the water kept unusually green during our long summer (I have no UV). The water cleared up a bit yesterday…just enough that I could see that the left gill was fat. So I bowled him today and was astonished to see how bad it was. This fish once had a nice body line for a male…it is quite skinny now. There is no deterioration of any fin. My pond is at my folk's house. Although I only visit about twice a week, I never miss a weekly filter maintenance and I test religiously…In fact, I love testing the water. I think I would have caught this early had the water been clearer.

      Parameters have always been good:
      Ammonia:0
      pH: rock steady 84
      Nitrite: 0
      Nitrate: usually 20ppm, occasionally peaks at 40
      hardness: 6 drops

      4,000 gallons with 5k gallons per hour turnover
      aerated bottom drain + skimmer >Ultrasieve III > pump > Ultima 10,000 > bakki shower
      constant trickle at 4 gallons per hour + 10% water change weekly

      Questions:
      Is this a tumor?
      If not, what is it?
      How do I treat it? I could not find anything in my koi disease book to match it.
      Is it contagious?
      Is it terminal?

      Any help would greatly be appreciated.

      Current behavior:
      very timid…doesn't make appearances often.
      Swims a little weighted toward the offended gill.
      Eats sporadically…usually very shy during feeding. Was once bold during feeding.
      Occasionally takes a gulp of air near the aerated boil at the surface. I suppose the blocked gill makes it difficult to breathe.


      About a year or so ago someone posted a tumoras growth in the gill area of koi. The person removed it only for it to return. If I remember right they put it down. I do not think Acriflavin is going to remedy this issue. It probably started to grow to the point of discomfort when he started to become shy. He probably had the issue way before that. It is just continuing to grow. The koi could be having issues trying to eat and this is why he is so thin. Well only get worse in the future and you well have to make a decision on what to do. imo Sorry

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    11. #11
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      Thanks kdh! I will look for that thread. I appreciate all the help I'm getting here!!!

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by sandthemall View Post
      Thanks kdh! I will look for that thread. I appreciate all the help I'm getting here!!!
      Cindy is pretty good at finding threads like this. Maye she can help.

    13. #13
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      Cindy, I do have clove oil to sedate it but will wait for further info before I do this.

    14. #14
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      Well, I found the pond forum site with the gill tumor and it seems to be similar to mine. Not sure what to do. Do I put this guy down?

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by sandthemall View Post
      Cindy, I do have clove oil to sedate it but will wait for further info before I do this.
      There is instructions in the ER sticky. Me? I'd sedate and look and see what it looks like. If you have a scope, with gloves, I'd get a little piece.

      The fish years back on this site had something similar on its head and it fell off. I'm a softy, until I see the fish struggling with quality of life, I don't put them down.

    16. #16
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      Found the thread there. Looking for more on gill goiter. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...158-Gill-Tumor

    17. #17
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      A really good read if it'll load http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...aqOO2E1Z73m3NQ

      Goes into respiratory diseases.

    18. #18
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      I do have a scope and gloves and clove oil. Will I need more than clove oil to anesthisize it?

    19. #19
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      A tub of the pond water large enough for the fish, about 12 drops of clove oil per gallon of water in the tub, and time. Once scrapes have been gotten, put the fish in some clean water with an airstone and allow it to wake. Shouldn't take very long for the fish to roll over and become non responsive, or after going back in clean water to groggily come back like a drunk.
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      Sandthemall, I have a Koi with what looks like the same issue. What treatment did you use? Was it successful?

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