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    Thread: Sand & Gravel Lesson Learned

    1. #21
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Try looking at grit that has been manufactured by crushing and sifting under the microscope. Then take bead filter beads and do the same. Then think about holding power. Well, now you're simply comparing it to beads ONLY. Earlier you included just about every other type of bio media.Here's an excerpt from your earlier post The usable bio surface area is probably greater than an equivalent volume of beads, ball, K1, mat, etc.In that post you basically "surmised/guessed" that this was fact, now your saying it IS fact with regard to bead media in a pressurized filter. Then below, you try to compare it to a fluidized/moving bed media like K1. Keep trying!

      It doesn't take scientific analysis to quickly surmise that a cubic foot of grit or course sand is going to be a lot greater surface area than a product with a lot of air between the surfaces and pieces such as K1.

      As for ceramic media there is absolutely no credible information that micron sized fissures only seen with a high powered microscope have any bio value. The square foot surface area equivalency is nothing more than advertising hype and not a reliable comparison between media types. Nothing but a over priced and hyped product with a good profit margin. 100,000 square feet of usable bio growing area in a cubic foot? I'll ask the Tooth Fairy and Santa on that one.

      There are many old school koi ponds still running with large diameter SG filters.
      Well while you're considering the "lack" of info about ceramic media, please provide some contrary proof or documentation to support your claims about grit with regards to the discussion. Look for the Tooth Fairy and Santa coming soon to a theater near you!lol
      Mike

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      The OP made it sound like cleaner water is going through the SG filter because of the RDF installation. Perhaps they can clear this up.

      .
      Uhhh, well Yes and No. The two ponds are separate the S&G pond is AF III Sieve to 2- S&G and MB's, lower pond RDF to Shower with a circuit to the upper pond falls supplied above. So the S&G's are only filtered by a 300 micron screen, so no cleaner water directly. Stuff is getting through to them. My observation was that when backwashing the S&G's I was only running the water to waste for Less than 3 minutes on each filter when doing it weekly. It was hardly a 300 gallon water change (on a 11,000 gallon combined volume). So I went to every few weeks. So, Yes the water overall was cleaner with the frequent rdf smaller particle removal and therefore less backwash waste, but only via the water recirculating between the ponds.

      Now, with my larger pond(s) I've also added larger fish and with my average 15% annual growth I'm really not allowing for a significant increase in waste over the last 13 months. I'm also buying higher quality fish which are growing much faster than my previous fish. The NW temps are also higher than in my 8 years of Koi Ponds so I'm feeding a much larger herd a much larger quantity of food for a longer growing season than ever before. I'm blowing through a pound a day on average and it's killing me. I've even had to go to the steps of taking the larger quantity of waste from both RDF and Sieve to different dump spots in the adjacent field. (I will give an S&G credit for liquefying all the waste as opposed to the other two mechanical methods)

      So I guess if I balance extra load, extra high temps, much more feeding in what is usually an inhospitable growth food climate for all but 4 months, then I should not be at all surprised that I need to backwash the S&G's more often. I'm giving a lot of fish a lot of food and not pulling any pellets out of the skimmer or AF collection area, and my ponds have never been clearer with this variety of mechanical and bio filtration. Now if I can just keep the water in em
      Last edited by nwrunner; 07-31-2015 at 09:05 PM.

    3. #23
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Well while you're considering the "lack" of info about ceramic media, please provide some contrary proof or documentation to support your claims about grit with regards to the discussion. Look for the Tooth Fairy and Santa coming soon to a theater near you!lol
      My SWAG assertions are a lot more reliable than the ceramic marketing BS claims of usable bio growing area.. 1 cubic foot of ceramic media is greater than the surface of two football fields!
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    4. #24
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      I believe grit does have more surface area than it is given credit for. I found several sites that back this up. They were easy to find with Google.
      I am also sceptical of the square foot surface area of the ceramic medias. Especially since they are theoretical numbers and not actually measured.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
      I believe grit does have more surface area than it is given credit for. I found several sites that back this up. They were easy to find with Google.
      I am also sceptical of the square foot surface area of the ceramic medias. Especially since they are theoretical numbers and not actually measured.
      Are you sure?


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    6. #26
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      Yes

    7. #27
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      Norm has told me that I need to "out" myself as the client referred to in his prior post, and 'fess up that my S/G is now completely clogged after I let it go for over a month. It was like crack: after a week, the water was light gray, after two weeks, only slightly darker; you get the picture. My public humiliation is now complete
      Mary

    8. #28
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      Second time trying to backwash birdman's S & G filter this morning, with shop vac. First time was perfect, this time, can't get it to work....no bubbles visible at all. Water is spilling out the blower pipe.......what is the problem...is it clogged?

      We've had it running for about a week and this would be the second backwashing. Thanks for any help

    9. #29
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      What size shop vac? And you can feel it blowing air?
      If water is flowing out the air pipe it usually means the media is dirty enough that it's easier
      for the water to flow up and out the air manifold than go through the media. But I've never
      had one physically clog.
      --Steve



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    10. #30
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      Like Steve, I too have had two B'man style S&G units running and have never seen either one clog. I have messed around and gone as long as a month before a backwash.

      My guess would be that your shop vac is not strong enough. Just because it worked the first time in only a week old filter does not mean the vac is strong enough to "blow' a dirty filter. Personally, I would suggest that you purchase a 1hp or 1-1/2hp spa blower and use that. I use a 1hp on my two filters. When my two 3" bottom drains get clogged, I use the blower to open them up. The blower is not strong enough to blow thru the BD line back into the pond but it backs up the water far enough and creates a vacuum so that when I remove the blower the drain line gushes so hard that it pulls the crud on through. This is a spring time issue only, so far.

      Always have fun,
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    11. #31
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      Thank you for the responses, you're both right The shop vac is not strong enough. We dialed back the flow of water and then it worked, so we knew it wasn't strong enough.

      We ended up using our professional grooming dog blower ( we have three newfoundlands ) and that did the trick, using only one of it's motors! Guess we'll continue using it, or get a spa blower

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Tula View Post
      Thank you for the responses, you're both right The shop vac is not strong enough. We dialed back the flow of water and then it worked, so we knew it wasn't strong enough.

      We ended up using our professional grooming dog blower ( we have three newfoundlands ) and that did the trick, using only one of it's motors! Guess we'll continue using it, or get a spa blower
      Lol! I'm a retired dog groomer and use my old Metro TopGun for my S&G's. A 2" Fernco fits perfectly over the blower end!
      I believe it is 4hp, so I have to valve off a lot of air flow. Still - perfect application.
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    13. #33
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      Yup, our K9 III comes in handy for multiple uses

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by GoldieGirl View Post
      I have failsafe openings on my S&G air blower pipes - simply tee's in the pipe right in or over the barrel so that if water rises in the pipe it just goes back into the barrel. I cap these when flushing. It's also a good visual to know that flushing is overdue.
      I don't understand this. how would water rise up the air pipe above the water level of the barrel

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by achappelear View Post
      I don't understand this. how would water rise up the air pipe above the water level of the barrel
      Because as the media (sand and gravel) gets dirtier, the easier path for the water to take is up and out the air pipe as opposed to going
      through the layers of gravel and sand. After the media is blown clean the water will resume flowing through the media since it is now much
      easier to pass through it as opposed to flowing higher through the blower pipe.Capping the air pipe will force the water, even if the media is
      dirty, through the sand and gravel.
      --Steve



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    16. #36
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      Why can’t S&G be downflow with an overflow to the pond?
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      People wonder " What happened to ol Blamm" This thread defines it.....good God man
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      PURA VIDA
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      They hate our freedom....

      "Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken


      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
      - Dom Helda Camara

      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
      - Bertrand Russell

      "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
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      PURA VIDA
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      They hate our freedom....

      "Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under." - H.L. Mencken


      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
      - Dom Helda Camara

      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
      - Bertrand Russell

      "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
      - Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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      Steve, Mary, Nanner, Gary,Nance, Brett, Brady, Savv, I'm forgetting hundreds...John up in NY...Bodycott...Wes That fella from Minnisoder* brilliant man---imported ornamental stuff ).
      Steve. Help me out bro. Toss pics !
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      BAD mofo I think / Martial art stuff... Ida whooped him back in da day !

      Well. I figger you people are *** ? IS the the Blammo rant???? Ol Blamm is checking out. I beat it for over a decade but....I made my peace with Him. The number is called up and that's that !
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      "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
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      "Untouched by the breath of God, unrestricted by human conscience, both capitalism and socialism are repulsive."
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