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    Thread: Back to the pond....

    1. #1
      OBB is offline Member
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      Back to the pond....

      First off HI!

      I had a large pond years ago, sold the house and yada yada yada... And now am in the process of building a new pond into our new patio off our existing deck... My old pond was quite a complicated design and lots of concrete but this one is a pretty simple and straight forward approach. Down the road I'll throw up some pics of my old setup...

      I did a few searches around here and can't seem to find what I'm looking for in the design I'm using... A simple wood framed corner pond. I can find every other shape but a diamond... I'm in the design phase and the idea is looking pretty good on paper and since its simply geometry it should fold pretty nice as well (I think). I am starting this project the week after the 4th of July so just looking for some input on the design & idea... And I'll also document the build here as well...

      The build will be (mostly) in the ground & construction will be just simple, coming up flush to the patio's grade, a pair of 2x12 treated rings stacked, with one shelf and with a little luck adding a simple bottom drain as well, and a nicely folded liner or EPDM (haven't decided on that yet)... so tell me what you think...

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      Last edited by OBB; 06-12-2015 at 08:48 PM.

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    2. #2
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      Welcome to Koiphen! I would go the extra 1/16" length on the pond for more volume! LOL! Seriously though your design shape is fine, however, to keep the water moving in the pond so as not to have any dead spots, I would add some TPR's. (Jets). The falls will move water to some degree, but the movement won't reach those sharp corners. The bottom drain is a great start to your filtration, but the design doesn't really show anything but maybe a bio falls. You may want to incorporate additional filtration to keep your water quality good. There are a lot of options you can find here on Koiphen for that depending on your budget.

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      Ha Dragon! 7' 15/16" LOL!!! I kept trying to make it hit the even 8' mark in the drawing on all the long sides but it refused to say 8'...

      Yes I know what you say about the cross circulation... and it has crossed my mind but I was thinking once running seeing how it cycles and if more cross flow needed, small second small pump to circulate, if needed... From my old pond I pulled most of my bigger components, including my old engine, a Tsurumi pump (3500gph, I think) which I am sure is total overkill this, maybe... maybe not... but also pondered splitting a few GPH for cross flow with a side jet possibly as wel... But still glad you said it as I can run pipes ahead of time if needed...

      I'm kind of torn on the bottom drain... In my last pond, in the concrete forming phase, I simply guessed and used a 5 gallon bucket as the sump form and it fit the pump & plumbing perfect but the difference this time around is I'm not doing a concrete build. In my head, I'm wondering if I could simply use a heavy duty 5 gallon bucket, dig the sump hole, run the plumbing, secure it and then on liner installation simply lay the liner over the bucket, trim out the inner top of the lid and wondering if I could simply snap the lid right over the liner and lock it, open the liner & pray it holds water?... I can see it as simple as that but just not sure if it would... Been outta this hobby so long I feel dumb...

      I think I'll go hunting for my old pic & vid files of my old pond tomorrow...

    4. #4
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      So... Here I am...

      I suppose I'll set a goal... Let's see if holding water before the snow flies is too much of a stretch... ...Works for me.

      Just so you know this is not an over the deep end installation.. A little water feature, some funs goldfish, maybe a turtle and a few plants... nothing more. It's a simple build at best when I look at some the off the deep-end builds here...

      It looks so easy on paper, doesn't it...

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      Then it's just a simple matter of following the plan.. Right?

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      Then dropped over my sons house and picked up some (just some) of my old pond stuffs and misc.. Totally forgot I had FAKE ROCKS!!! Then plugged in thepair of Tsurmi pumps that until yesterday has been sitting stored outside since fall 2007 and both still pump like they were new... I suppose that's why they cost so dang much...

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      ...DOH! Forgot, picked these up for free last for a whopping cost of a $29.99 uhaul & $35.00 in gas... a few steaks & beers with a few friends... Pulled em all, stacked em all, loaded em all, unloaded, re-stacked em all (so not to **** off my neighbor) and all ready to go... 720 SgFt ..OR... 18,500 pounds of patio bricks...

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      Went looking in the archive and these were all I could find of my old pond... around 2007... It had been running since 1998

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      Just waiting now for the excavator that starts July 6th... Wish me luck...

    5. #5
      icu2's Avatar
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      Welcome to Koiphen!

      For me personally, even if I was going to do a small pond and goldfish, I'd put a bottom drain in and not use submersible
      pumps... And I wish I could be more help on the shape, but I've never done anything like that in a corner.

      Do you have a complete plan from mechanical filters to separate solid waste all the way to bio and fines filters? It might be worth posting
      to get a critique on your plans.

      Great score on all the bricks!
      --Steve



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      We did a corner pond and its gone through a couple of necessary improvements. We went deeper and added a skimmer and BD along with bio falls. Just last week i had to retro fit a cinder block collar due to some wall collapse. The flow is actually pretty good for filtration and i highly recommend an external pump, BD, Skimmer, and S/G filter, even for just goldies. Here is a link to the major redo...

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ime&highlight=

    7. #7
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      Hi Visitor I like your space!

      Its hard to see but my old pond in the pics up there above, the lower pond was 6'6" deep and its floor was 9' to the top of the falls. While it was kind of a PITA it was actually a really fun setup and I kept it up & running very well from '98 through '09 until we sold that house (and is still running today or the last time I drove by 2 years ago it was anyway). The whole thing started in late 96/97 and then about every other year I would add section after section and I'm sure this will go the same route but with a little more thought...

      This time around, while it's nice having a much larger lot? I'm kinda stuck with only one place where I can put it and even though I want deeper & bigger? Common sense screams less hassle this time... I know this is small but I know it will expand as time goes by... you know how this hobby is, once it gets the talons in... LOL!

      Things I know for sure right now is I will be plumbing and installing a BD & a pair of opposed eyeballs (one high , one low) and pre-plumbing for external filtering upgrades. The main goal this summer is just getting everything up & in it's place with what's on hand... My rule is, if you got it, you might as well use it... No point in having a garage full of doorsteps. And $600 for a new main pump isn't in this years budget & got enough on the plate... So... Makes sense to me...

      As for expanding the filtration goes... For now I'm shooting for a decent prefilter & then sand filtration setup (pretty much what I ran on my old one and it handled that quite well, just alot smaller this time) and sorry no drawings yet, one thing at a time... Biggest problem I'm running into at the moment is figuring out where to hide it all *sigh*... And the neighbor's already made a point thru snide comments about what I'm doing, not like I really care what he thinks but I still have to factor it into the endgame as well....

      Though I'm pretty sure no matter where anything lands up, so far, the waste gate will be straight downhill toward his yard unless I turn my house around... or buy the house across the street (which isn't in the budget either)

      ... LOL

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      ---DELETED---

      Can someone please delete these attachments for me please? I can't seem to remove them... Thank you...
      Last edited by icu2; 06-30-2015 at 09:43 PM.

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      Ok so thank god for sketchup... I found major flaws and then really got me to wondering a few things...

      So I'll try this again and forgo visual aids until it's clearer...

      So I went and calculated the actual volume in its entirety...

      Diamond shaped 8'x8'x2' (-20% for the clipped corner) Volume = 735 (+/- 10 gallons)
      1- 55 gallon drum = Volume = 55 gallons (duh)
      40' of 3" PVC- Volume = 14 gallons
      The return waterfall thingy - Volume = ~94 gallons

      For the grand total of 898 Gallons (give or take 5-10 gallons)

      As far as filtration.... After exhaustive reading I'm really liking the DIY gravel/sand filter and that is the route. And located in a small pit to allow the system to run at the same water level of the pond level... can also add media to the fall return as well (but not sure what I'd use though, does this sound good or... can you offer any ideas what to run in there? coarse foam? ceramic media? or ???)

      Another thing I noticed after going through the earlier design and because of the sort-of shallow design of the pond that originally I wanted to add a skimmer in one back wall but unfortunately after seeing the sizes of them (even the smallest pool skimmers I looked at the local pool store yesterday) both the 2 rear walls will not allow access to the top cover to remove the basket because of the stone raised garden beds and putting in the front into the patio around it would just look goofy sticking up 4" above the patio... And then considered how much it would decrease the flow from the BD and now just seems to be a bit overkill... Also, as the more I thought about it? there are literally no trees in my yard and none of any of my neighbors! Evergreens and that's it! 5 yards away there are a few large maple trees but... in the last 5 years I have lived here? I can count the leaves that I've had to pick up in the yard in the fall on one hand. And with the raised garden beds, which will only be growing day Lilly's, not much drops from them, other than when they flower (which is also pretty minimal) and with the beds blocking the pond from the prevailing wind from the north & west completely being blocked from debris blowing into it? It really got me wondering about just skipping the in-wall skimmer... though if there does come a need I can see I can very easily add a floating skimmer if I ever needed to quite easily...

      So in a nutshell the plan now is:
      The Koi Toilet II for the BD ... But am also looking at this Standard BD as well... Anyadvice here? I'm thinking the standard one with the side mount might be better for me but could use some input on the construction quality between the two...
      2 - 1" eyeball returns
      The entire plumbing system will be full 3" PVC except the 2 eyeball returns that will be reduced & controlled off the return manifold)
      And all to run off one single in line pump

      So... 3 questions I have...

      GPH: Now that I know the volume what would be a respectable target of GPH for ideal flow through the system? And what can I expect for GPH to & from thru 3" PVC? Pretty sure I shouldn't need to be an insane amount considering 90% of the system will be below waterline and the only piece above it being the falls/filter (~100 gallons)... And I would expect for it to flow pretty well naturally thru 3" plumbing... or am I not factoring something in here? I was guessing in the range of 3-5k GPH? I'd like it to filter well but also in the same token I'm trying to plumb this right and hopefully avoid the electric meter spinning at light speed as well...

      Wall returns: I've seen the TPR's flying around here but is there really a difference in function by using them V. eyeballs?... Personally I see from eyeballs I can tweak circulation as the TPR's look as if they are fixed at angles for returns... or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place too... Advantages or disadvantages?

      And lastly? Can someone explain or show me a picture of the Koi Toilet II? While I know what it looks like in general I can't seem to see (or find here or anywhere it seems) how it's actually assembled, like the top! Is the curved cover removable? ..or fixed ...if it is removable does it snap onto the base? screw on? I can pretty much guess how it secures the liner just clamps the liner if I had to guess... just like my old pool's BD... yes?

      Thanks
      Last edited by OBB; 06-27-2015 at 01:27 PM.

    10. #10
      icu2's Avatar
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      I missed your post about needing the attachments removed... would you still like those gone?

      One thing to be aware of is that the sand and gravel filters need to be pump fed and gravity returned
      to the pond... the outlet of it needs to be above pond level.

      I wouldn't use the 1" eyeball returns. They put a lot of head on your pump. If you point the tpr's at the
      correct angle, you really never have to adjust them. You also can order them with female inside threads so
      you could screw in a 22* or 45* fitting and direct the water differently.

      If you can't incorporate an in wall skimmer, you might check the no-niche style ones. Even if you have no leaves,
      the skimmer is essential in keeping the surface free of foam/bubbles, dust, oil from food, etc.

      There's actually a link on Cascade's site that you listed that shows a KT II... the dome is just a slip fit into fittings
      on the BD itself. If you look closely at the picture you can see there are two pieces to the BD; they clamp together
      with screws.
      --Steve



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    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
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      After I posted that the KT II dome slipped into place, I think I lied.
      I used the 3" version for my mid water pickups and I think they actually had screws in each "leg" section attaching them to
      the top piece of the BD... but either way I've never had one come off.
      They don't have a "sump" like the other BD does and they slip directly onto the pipe, but seem to work great.

      Attached Images Attached Images  
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I missed your post about needing the attachments removed... would you still like those gone?
      Yes Please... Thank you...

      So anyway where was I... So... ordered up 4 of the 2" FPT bulkheads (2 for intake, 2 threaded ones for return). I was going to go with all 3" on every pipe but seemed to overkill with 3 inlets, 2 outlets & ordered the standard BD with the 4" side inlet so I'll need to reduce or split it somewhere along the way... but should share the load, 2" to the sand/gravel when I build it (which probably won't be until the very end of the season) and 2" to the bio falls.... 2+2=4 right?

      Also made up the 2 frames today as well... Wow! They seem alot bigger than they did on paper but are the exact dimensions of the drawing except I omitted the shelf, the more I thought about it seemed kind of pointless and without it would probably make installing the liner alot less hassle.... And of course, the wife freaked out when she saw them -LOL-

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      But after cleaning up in the garage I got wondering about the liner... And I think the bottom tier I am going to add a perimeter base of 2x12 all the way around. My thought here is after its down in the ground and then facing everything with cement tile backer all the way around and then glue in the entire liner.... and on the bottom where the wood ends simply fill & tampto the base level , add sand for the slope to the BD and voil!! So the question is... Can EPDM be adhered to 5/16" smooth cement tile backing board? ...Only reason for asking is I come from the commercial trades and I've seen it installed on masonry parapet walls on 60 story buildings a million times but, not sure about submerged applications to masonry... I don't think it would stick to fresh treated lumber to well & the chemicals with age... or will it? Any suggestions or guidance on this?
      Last edited by OBB; 06-30-2015 at 09:35 PM.

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      Not to shabby... Elapsed excavating time? ...48 hours and I love the fact that they ran out of gravel on the one back wall so now I can take my leisure on the plumbing.. As soon as I lay down 6,000 bricks... give or take a gross.

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      For some reason it wont upload anymore pics...
      Last edited by OBB; 07-10-2015 at 06:25 PM.

    14. #14
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      Check the picture size. They need to be about 800X600 pixels or less to load.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

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      Ok so it's been going pretty well so far... Patio & garden beds are coming right along but now I'm stuck at the plumbing part and hoping I didn't shoot myself in the foot here....

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      But now I need to ask a few questions and I'm hoping I'm not totally screwed here... The way this is being plumbed to the S/G filter will be set nearly 4' above the pond level (barrel height + a few bricks to level to pipe up) and while the filter will only be about 6' from the pond the piping run is roughly 30' +/- ... So my question is, how much of a headache am I about to get into trying to first, push that much water up through the S/G that far and then how much stress or overload am I going to be putting on an in line pump... On top of this I've run all the scenarios and putting in a pit for the is not an option...

      For some reason, and I don't know why, but I am suddenly seeing that I am going to putting quite a load on the pump just in normal run condition... or am I mistaken... ?

      Here's a quick sketchup of whats going on, it's not exact, but you'll get the jist so you can see what I'm talking about here... keep in mind all of the plumbing is 3".... And the riser are the manifolds for control but couldn't seem to find any valves so you'll have to imagine them on top poking above the raised garden beds.... and also, there is a section that you can see must dive below the patio walkout... I am worried that this is detail is going to be a potential freezing point as I won't be able to simply empty/evacuate the water from it as it will be below both maintenance drains... If you have questions or need a better drawing just say so.... I really need advice on this...
      Last edited by icu2; 08-01-2015 at 03:42 PM. Reason: edited per request

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      Opps sorry, just upgraded to win10... don't know why MSpaint overlapped the saved images... go by these corrected ones please (you can delete the 3 messed up ones above it, thanks)

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    17. #17
      icu2's Avatar
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      Where does the pump fit in the drawing, and why does the pipe loop up high in the planter (I think it's a planter) part behind the pond?
      --Steve



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      They are not meant to actually be that high, was just kind of rushing through the drawing... the way they look in the drawing they are way too high but won't be like that in the end build... they will all wind up ~28" AFF )..or in this case I guess it's APS above pond surface ... LOL... or just above level to top of the planter beds which is 22" APS... and I'm sure I will also find a much simpler manifold design that will be much more compact than what you see in the quick off-scale drawing as well...

      As for pump placement goes, my thoughts were toward the end of the line, closest to the S/G filter and incorporating a 3" back check upon exit of the BD & Skimmer line just below APS & as close to the actual pond as possible... I figured this way, I could fill the line to aid with priming... but still leaves me with the question about pump load... while I have not many option of locations to put the pump as shown below (green block) is about my only option for placement.... I could, in dire straits, put it nearer to the pond but, running pumps below grade in close proximity to power & the elements would sort of have bad Juju all over it....


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    19. #19
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      You will get trapped air in those pipes that go up and back down regardless of the height, I'm still a little confused why you are doing them that way.

      Cheryl

    20. #20
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by OBB View Post
      They are not meant to actually be that high, was just kind of rushing through the drawing... the way they look in the drawing they are way too high but won't be like that in the end build... they will all wind up ~28" AFF )..or in this case I guess it's APS above pond surface ... LOL... or just above level to top of the planter beds which is 22" APS... and I'm sure I will also find a much simpler manifold design that will be much more compact than what you see in the quick off-scale drawing as well...

      As for pump placement goes, my thoughts were toward the end of the line, closest to the S/G filter and incorporating a 3" back check upon exit of the BD & Skimmer line just below APS & as close to the actual pond as possible... I figured this way, I could fill the line to aid with priming... but still leaves me with the question about pump load... while I have not many option of locations to put the pump as shown below (green block) is about my only option for placement.... I could, in dire straits, put it nearer to the pond but, running pumps below grade in close proximity to power & the elements would sort of have bad Juju all over it....


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      I'm with Cheryl. Even though they're not gravity flow, any rise and fall in the pipe on the way to the pump is a potential
      spot to fill with air. Being under constant suction you've got a better chance of getting away with a small amount, but the
      risk isn't worth it. They should follow a stead rise in elevation or level to the pump from the exit point of the pond.

      And remember that the pump wants to push water, not pull it. It would be much better to find a spot where the pump is closer
      to the egress points and under water level. Wire the pump on a gfci circuit breaker, put it in an spot that is well drained and won't flood,
      and is protected from the elements.
      --Steve



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