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    Thread: tosai 14.5 inch

    1. #1
      ckoi is online now Senior Member
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      tosai 14.5 inch

      Just wondering what people thought about this koi. I thought it was pretty awesome quality. My friend was considering buying it only hesitation was it was male.
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    2. #2
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      What size is his pond? What is his current stocking density? Filtration? What does he what from the fish he keeps - competition, high quality for personal enjoyment or ?
      Mike

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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      What size is his pond? What is his current stocking density? Filtration? What does he what from the fish he keeps - competition, high quality for personal enjoyment or ?
      its for personal enjoyment, I would like to have got it if I could afford it without getting in big trouble and lie to my wife. I thought it excellent confirmation, and a great pattern, beni looked soft. Whats your view on it Mike?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ckoi View Post
      its for personal enjoyment, I would like to have got it if I could afford it without getting in big trouble and lie to my wife. I thought it excellent confirmation, and a great pattern, beni looked soft. Whats your view on it Mike?
      I saw that you are located in BC. Are you located in Vancouver by any chance? Are there any good koi dealer there?

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      I think i saw that one a few days ago .. Distinctive pattern and kiwa.. Is this one from Sakai?

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      Looks like SFF to me. Nice fish... regardless of sex

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      yes it is a sakai fish

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      At first, as I was looking at the pic, my first thought was, it's a male and the beni looks too finished at this age. Now, that you say it from SFF, that can make a difference as many of his fish look like this but are NOT yet finished. So, depending on the price, it would certainly be worth purchasing as it does have a decent body/skin/depth of color is even throughout. But, the real question is - does he have the skills and the system to bring out/maintain a fish of higher quality?
      Mike

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      Is it normal for a tosai to not have the scale transparency? I mean the shiroji on this one resembles that of a nisai. Also which category of Sakai fish has their kiwa developed early? I see a lot from Sakai that does not have their kiwa fully developed even at nisai. If I said something stupid, pardon me and disregard me.

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      I've also been told that the kiwa in most of sakai's fish pull inward to form maruzome kiwa. That being said doesn't koi do that once only? How do we know that this kois beni wount shrink?

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      It looks like it will have marizome kiwa to me. If you look at the kiwa to the right side of the dorsal of the second beni plate, it looks to be developing there. Generally marizome kiwa starts to define itself near the belly first, then works its way toward the dorsal over time.

    12. #12
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      Many fish, not just SFF, have this same tendency, but I think you're referring to sashi, not kiwa. Yes, a fish with maruzome kiwa will develop exactly like inazuma mentions, and this one is well on it's way to finishing, but just not quite there yet.

      Different genetic bloodlines, though most are really mixed up nowadays, will display either kamisori or maruzome kiwa. The maruzome type is more highly cherished nowadays by the breeders in Japan as they feel or portrays a more refined look when the fish become mature/finished. Though kamisori kiwa is still present in many lines, the breeders are really trying to weed it out for the reasons I stated above.

      the depth or thickness of the beni on SFF fish can tend to make it look finished or even hard to the untrained eye. The only concern I have about this one is that it displays no hoshi. This could change if given a good diet and fed properly for good/faster growth. Only time will tell though on this one.
      Mike

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      SFF Koi tend to display no Hoshi...
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      SFF Koi tend to display no Hoshi...
      so it is a different type of beni which is not a bad thing right?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ckoi View Post
      so it is a different type of beni which is not a bad thing right?
      It is not bad at all when beni is keeping up with the growth without showing hoshi. Other breeders also have fish that dont show hoshi.

      Another tell for SFF fish is how clean and sharp the edge of beni plates look.

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      SFF fish are easier to spot than many other breeders. I agree about the beni, but another big sign it's an SFF fish is the body. His fish tend to be beefy. like little well proportioned tanks.

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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      SFF fish are easier to spot than many other breeders. I agree about the beni, but another big sign it's an SFF fish is the body. His fish tend to be beefy. like little well proportioned tanks.
      Ever compare them with Dainichi stock?
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      SFF fish are easier to spot than many other breeders. I agree about the beni, but another big sign it's an SFF fish is the body. His fish tend to be beefy. like little well proportioned tanks.
      It is relatively easier to spot fish from large breeders like SFF, Dainichi and Momotaro. It is partially the bloodline but more importantly the culling process. Look at the Dainichi fish on Kodama. They are all over the place in body. Only above certain pricing point, will you start to see consistent traits that the breeders care for.

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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      It is relatively easier to spot fish from large breeders like SFF, Dainichi and Momotaro. It is partially the bloodline but more importantly the culling process. Look at the Dainichi fish on Kodama. They are all over the place in body. Only above certain pricing point, will you start to see consistent traits that the breeders care for.
      I dont know if I fully agree. Of course selective culling makes a difference, but selective culling is also selective breeding making new and different lines. Dianichi is all over the place (Tons of oyagoi and tons of lines), and I have never been able to tell if a fish was bred by Momotaro. SFF fish are different, He has a few bloodlines that display similar traits to one another while other breeders have different lines for different traits. Well, i feel this is true for SFF kohakus and Sankes anyway. If you see his catalog with lineages, the bloodline line seems to be ALMOST irrelevant to what gets produced. Also, his lines throw out fish that other breeder's lines cant. Like how INC fish have long strong bodies with insane skin, SFF fish have a certain beni and tank-like body shape.... While not all of the fish they produce will fit their stereotype, you wont get and INC fish from SFF parent stock and you wont get a dianichi kohaku from an SFF parent stock.

      What I am trying to explain is that, while there is of course variation in what SFF produces, there are more definite "tells" to his fish than most other breeders.

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      I dont know if I fully agree. Of course selective culling makes a difference, but selective culling is also selective breeding making new and different lines. Dianichi is all over the place (Tons of oyagoi and tons of lines), and I have never been able to tell if a fish was bred by Momotaro. SFF fish are different, He has a few bloodlines that display similar traits to one another while other breeders have different lines for different traits. Well, i feel this is true for SFF kohakus and Sankes anyway. If you see his catalog with lineages, the bloodline line seems to be ALMOST irrelevant to what gets produced. Also, his lines throw out fish that other breeder's lines cant. Like how INC fish have long strong bodies with insane skin, SFF fish have a certain beni and tank-like body shape.... While not all of the fish they produce will fit their stereotype, you wont get and INC fish from SFF parent stock and you wont get a dianichi kohaku from an SFF parent stock.

      What I am trying to explain is that, while there is of course variation in what SFF produces, there are more definite "tells" to his fish than most other breeders.
      I will agree with your last statement as they certainly do have inherent traits that can make them more easily indentifiable than many other breeder's stock, but the part I highlighted I have to say, I find amusing. Do you know how much influence there is from INC in SFF fish genetics?
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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