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    Thread: is this a kikusui? Please critique

    1. #1
      Rufretic is offline Senior Member
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      is this a kikusui? Please critique

      I'm not sure if this would be a kikusui or not so please let me know what you think it is. How is the quality? I've been looking at kikusui and I've noticed the beni on some is more orange like this one and some are more red. I love the bright red but on a young fish, does this indicate it's finished too early? For example, an orange one like this, as it develops will it turn more red or is it just a sign of poor beni? This one is 10" but I've seen ones much smaller with the bright red. I'm obviously still trying to learn how beni develops and how to judge the quality. For me it seams even more difficult to judge on doitsu. I have some beautiful red beni on some of my young doitsu but now I'm wondering if they are destined to fail as they age and maybe I should be looking for the orange beni on young fish so it won't be finished until the fish is larger. Please advise. Thank you.
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      Kevin the koi guy is offline Senior Member
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      Yes kikusui. It is a pond grade fist IMHO. The beni will not get darker and having it covering the one eye would be detracting for me. If you bought the fish have fun with the journey and learn from it. Take care
      Kevin the koi guy!

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      Quote Originally Posted by Kevin the koi guy View Post
      Yes kikusui. It is a pond grade fist IMHO. The beni will not get darker and having it covering the one eye would be detracting for me. If you bought the fish have fun with the journey and learn from it. Take care
      Thanks Kevin. It's not mine. It's priced as a pond grade as well so I don't expect much. I did think the body shape looked ok and actually like the pattern. I tend to pick patterns based on what appeals to me, not what the standard is. Plus with my little knowlage, I thought the skin and sheen looked ok. But the most important thing to me finding the right kikusui is getting the beni I want, red. I've never owned one yet so would like to get it right on the first try. I don't ever plan to show my koi so I'm ok with having some qualitys lacking but I do want to try and get one with at least good beni. If the orange never has a chance of darkening to a red, then I should only be considering ones that already have the red color I'm looking for? This is more research purposes, I'm trying to hold off buying any until I go to the next show. I just want to have a better understanding of what I should be looking for once there.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rufretic View Post
      Thanks Kevin. It's not mine. It's priced as a pond grade as well so I don't expect much. I did think the body shape looked ok and actually like the pattern. I tend to pick patterns based on what appeals to me, not what the standard is. Plus with my little knowlage, I thought the skin and sheen looked ok. But the most important thing to me finding the right kikusui is getting the beni I want, red. I've never owned one yet so would like to get it right on the first try. I don't ever plan to show my koi so I'm ok with having some qualitys lacking but I do want to try and get one with at least good beni. If the orange never has a chance of darkening to a red, then I should only be considering ones that already have the red color I'm looking for? This is more research purposes, I'm trying to hold off buying any until I go to the next show. I just want to have a better understanding of what I should be looking for once there.
      Excellent. Get book smart so you can understand what you are looking at when you get in front of live koi.

      Now. I want you to get back to koi basics. Think of this koi as a scaless, metallic kohaku. Scaless= doitsu. Doitsu conformation is different than wagoi conformation. You'd like to see a wagoi conformation with a thick body and tail tube. This is a particularly challanging area in doitsugoi, as the doitsu breed is has a different body. When you combine the two body styles, doitsu seems to win out (particularly in lower quality koi. Better bodies are, of course, more expensive). 2: Metallic. Luster, sheen, shine, metalliic- call it what you want, but it should shine and have a reflective look. 3: Pattern- since there are no scales, you will not have sashi nor kiwa. You want razor sharp edges with no bleeding out on the perimeters. Back to basics- the pattern shouldn't go through the eyes. It can, but it is not traditional. Beni in the pec fins. Again, as a learning fundemental, look for clean pec fins and in fact they should be brilliant white. The hi plates should be even in tone- no faded patches or areas that are lighter or darker in color.


      Edit: I want you to also look at the tail. What happens at the tail?

      So, now what do you see in this koi?
      Last edited by Appliance Guy; 02-27-2015 at 11:00 AM.
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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      Excellent. Get book smart so you can understand what you are looking at when you get in front of live koi.

      Now. I want you to get back to koi basics. Think of this koi as a scaless, metallic kohaku. Scaless= doitsu. Doitsu conformation is different than wagoi conformation. You'd like to see a wagoi conformation with a thick body and tail tube. This is a particularly challanging area in doitsugoi, as the doitsu breed is has a different body. When you combine the two body styles, doitsu seems to win out (particularly in lower quality koi. Better bodies are, of course, more expensive). 2: Metallic. Luster, sheen, shine, metalliic- call it what you want, but it should shine and have a reflective look. 3: Pattern- since there are no scales, you will not have sashi nor kiwa. You want razor sharp edges with no bleeding out on the perimeters. Back to basics- the pattern shouldn't go through the eyes. It can, but it is not traditional. Beni in the pec fins. Again, as a learning fundemental, look for clean pec fins and in fact they should be brilliant white. The hi plates should be even in tone- no faded patches or areas that are lighter or darker in color.


      Edit: I want you to also look at the tail. What happens at the tail?

      So, now what do you see in this koi?
      I think in relation to price, this could be a fair example. It's only a $50 koi.
      I'm getting a little better at comparing one fish to another but still need to train my eye to see the things you mention on an individual. I'll try with this one but without something to compare it to, I guess you can only look for the imperfections compared to a perfect example, in that case it is easy to see many flaws.
      The edges of beni are blurred in many areas. The color of beni is low quality but how can you tell the difference between low quality beni and unfinished beni? If I post a picture of a koi with bright red beni at this age, wouldn't that be an example of beni that finished too early and is going to fail in the near future? The metallic looks ok but its hard to tell in pictures. Beni always looks uneven to me on metallic fish in pictures so how can you tell if it's good metallic or bad beni? The shiro looks pretty clean in this one but the left pec fin has some beni. The overall shape looks smooth but thin. The nose is too pointy and the tail tube is thin.
      All of this critique is helpful but how do you relate it to a price? These things are easy to pick out comparing to a show fish but I bet I could find a $200 example that is worse than this fish. Critiquing a koi in relation to price is what is so hard for me. Based off this, wouldn't it be safe to say this koi has a fair quality for $50?

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      Rufretic,

      I really like your threads, and the way you approach questions about koi quality vs price. I'm trying to learn too, and these discussions are very helpful.

    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rufretic View Post
      I think in relation to price, this could be a fair example. It's only a $50 koi.
      I'm getting a little better at comparing one fish to another but still need to train my eye to see the things you mention on an individual. I'll try with this one but without something to compare it to, I guess you can only look for the imperfections compared to a perfect example, in that case it is easy to see many flaws.
      The edges of beni are blurred in many areas. The color of beni is low quality but how can you tell the difference between low quality beni and unfinished beni? If I post a picture of a koi with bright red beni at this age, wouldn't that be an example of beni that finished too early and is going to fail in the near future? The metallic looks ok but its hard to tell in pictures. Beni always looks uneven to me on metallic fish in pictures so how can you tell if it's good metallic or bad beni? The shiro looks pretty clean in this one but the left pec fin has some beni. The overall shape looks smooth but thin. The nose is too pointy and the tail tube is thin.
      All of this critique is helpful but how do you relate it to a price? These things are easy to pick out comparing to a show fish but I bet I could find a $200 example that is worse than this fish. Critiquing a koi in relation to price is what is so hard for me. Based off this, wouldn't it be safe to say this koi has a fair quality for $50?
      Yes, I think so but, when I did the cheap Koi retail thing I would have these for $15 - $25.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Yes, I think so but, when I did the cheap Koi retail thing I would have these for $15 - $25.
      So you would group this koi in with the mutts from petsmart? You can't really go any cheaper than a $15 koi, that's what the petsmart ones are and are much smaller than this one. From what I've learned so far, these koi that I've been posting have got to be at least considered better quality than those petsmart mutts. Do you have any pictures of what you would consider a mid-grade koi that shows some qualities but would never win any shows. Something that would fall into the couple hundred dollar range. I'm sure there are a lot of people like me that would like to get away from the no quality koi but are not ready to start spending $500+. I've been searching koi in the $50-$300 range and to be honest, I'm not finding much difference in quality. I would be ready to spend something around $200-$300 on a koi but only if I could see more quality in it compared to these $50 koi. I'm really hoping seeing koi in this range in person will be easier to see the quality levels. That's probably my biggest problem, I have never seen a good quality koi in person. Learning off pictures is not helping my learning curve as much as I'd like lol. One thing I will say, so far out of the koi I have purchased ranging from $15-$100 is that the only ones that I can notice have better quality is the imports. It is not price comparable either, a $35 import I have has noticeably better qualities than a $100 domestic, skin, shape, just overall appearance. I'm sure this is not always the case but in the koi I have so far, it is noticeable.

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      Here is a decent quality Kikusui to compare with. This one was imported but I didn't end up with it. It was at the show in Dallas and If memory serves me right I think it went for around $250. Not 100% sure on that but close. At least it gives you a guideline to go by. This one could be shown, probably won't do real well as a show fish once mature but still a decent fish to show and learn from and not break the bank. The big trick is learning the qualities and figuring out what you will sacrifice in order to get the deal your looking for. Learn body confirmation and skin, these are important, then look at variety representation. Not so much pattern but what the standards of the variety in question are. Keep in mind someone can show you a $300 Koi, if you like it and buy it's worth $300 dollars, If no one buys it and it ends up on sale for $100 then it's worth a $100.
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      Here are a few domestic Koi a friend and I picked up a few weeks ago. Keep in mind, these are not show koi, but they aren't run of the mill mutt type koi either. each has issues but each was purchased because the price was right for the Koi that was being looked at on the day. All are less than $100 koi.
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      One last post and I'll let others post. Buying a koi to show and buying a quality koi doesn't have to cost thousands of dollars. You have to learn the koi, what to look for and how to pick out of a large group. To me that's the hard part. I picked this one last fall out of a tank with about 25 koi in it. It stood out to me and it attracted me. I guess it stood out to the judges as well. May not ever win anything again but for a koi that cost well within the budget range your looking for they are possible to find if your patient and learn from those that have taken the time to learn what true quality is and how to look for it.
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      Rufretic is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by fishin4cars View Post
      Here is a decent quality Kikusui to compare with. This one was imported but I didn't end up with it. It was at the show in Dallas and If memory serves me right I think it went for around $250. Not 100% sure on that but close. At least it gives you a guideline to go by. This one could be shown, probably won't do real well as a show fish once mature but still a decent fish to show and learn from and not break the bank. The big trick is learning the qualities and figuring out what you will sacrifice in order to get the deal your looking for. Learn body confirmation and skin, these are important, then look at variety representation. Not so much pattern but what the standards of the variety in question are. Keep in mind someone can show you a $300 Koi, if you like it and buy it's worth $300 dollars, If no one buys it and it ends up on sale for $100 then it's worth a $100.
      I can see higher qualities in this koi. This is a perfect example of what I would like to find and I would be happy with one of this quality. The problem I'm having is finding anything near this at my price range. I've found a few that I would consider comparable quality, they have some issues but still look like a nice quality koi. Unfortunately the sellers are asking way more for them, $750+. Some of the ones I've found for $200-$300 look like worse quality than the original one I posted :-(.
      I'm hoping going to a show I'll have better luck.
      I also really like that showa you pictured, looks very nice for that price.
      Thank you for posting your examples, it gives me a little hope if I'm patient, I might be able to find what I'm looking for.

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      LadysSolo is offline Senior Member
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      Go to Russell's thread of his most recent Japan trip, and look at the Kohaku tosai he is offering for $200.00. I don't know if you can tell in the picture, but they are pretty nice fish. They will likely have nicer white (shiroji) and the beni (red-orange) will likely hold up well. I also feel that the fish you are posting are better than petsmart/Petsupplies plus fish, but around here those koi go for $6.00 for 4"-6" fish, and $10.00 for 6" to 8" fish. I haven't seen any for as much as $15.00, at least not around here. And most around here are not any recognizable type/color pattern.

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      Price and "quality" don't always go hand in hand. Also, PLEASE, don't compare the prices of mutt koi at a Pet Smart or fish store as they are marked up way over the value of the fish. Also, you have to learn to understand that in small fish, you won't see the quality, such as that Kohaku, later on as the beni is quite "hard" and the shiroji is already too finished. The "return" on investment is hardly ever there with regard to koi. You do have to buy what you like, but you also have to have a "goal" in mind as to whether you will enjoy your purchase for the short term or the long term. Then you can begin to try to learn about what qualities you're looking for or want. I will guarantee ANYONE one thing. The more you learn about quality, the more you will begin to see the inherent flaws in a fish, and your price point for what your new "eye" sees, will increase almost exponentially.

      Russ made a very good point about all this in his remark about what his pricing for this quality level used to be. Most dealers use price points below $200 as the "meat and potatoes" of the business model. The larger the fish for this price point, the less quality the fish will be. Many times it has to do with the "left overs" that the dealer can't even break even on anymore, considering how long they've had the fish, and they just want to move it out in order to make room for new seasonal stocks which they can sell for more money. In some of these, you might be able to find something that was missed previously, and end up with a rather nice fish for less money. But don't think you're going to walk in to a dealer every time and find these "diamonds in the rough". Dealers usually know what they have and will price accordingly. Big box and privately owned pet/fish stores don't care nor do they understand koi quality usually. They buy cheap mutts from their fish distributor, don't care really where they came from or how they were kept (qt'd). Many of these small fish will be purchased by them for no more than $1-$2 and marked up to anywhere from $3-$25 or more depending solely on size. So, if that's what tilts your kilt, then fine. But when trying to learn about what "quality" koi are, don't start there as a mutt is a mutt and will never change for the better. It's just not in their "genes" to do so.
      Mike

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      Rufretic is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
      Go to Russell's thread of his most recent Japan trip, and look at the Kohaku tosai he is offering for $200.00. I don't know if you can tell in the picture, but they are pretty nice fish. They will likely have nicer white (shiroji) and the beni (red-orange) will likely hold up well. I also feel that the fish you are posting are better than petsmart/Petsupplies plus fish, but around here those koi go for $6.00 for 4"-6" fish, and $10.00 for 6" to 8" fish. I haven't seen any for as much as $15.00, at least not around here. And most around here are not any recognizable type/color pattern.
      I have looked at those. From what I can tell, they look nice. If I was looking for kohaku and wanted to purchase now, I would get one to try out. But for now, no matter what types I'm looking at, I don't plan to make any purchases until I get to a show and see some nice koi in person. Plus, I think I would feel much more comfortable purchasing my first $200+ koi in person.

      I'm not sure on pricing at petsmart everywhere but the ones around here have 4 sizes, small, medium, large and extra large. All smaller than 8" but the closest comparable size go for something like $15.99 and I think petco is $16.99. I have not looked at either in a while but that's what I remember. Petco might of even been $18.99, I remember thinking it was more than petsmart and was a lot for one fish at that time lol. One solid orange one stood out like a completely different fish then any others I had ever seen so I got it. It actually has a really nice color, it glows in my pond but I don't think it's even grown an inch in a year lol.

      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Price and "quality" don't always go hand in hand. Also, PLEASE, don't compare the prices of mutt koi at a Pet Smart or fish store as they are marked up way over the value of the fish. Also, you have to learn to understand that in small fish, you won't see the quality, such as that Kohaku, later on as the beni is quite "hard" and the shiroji is already too finished. The "return" on investment is hardly ever there with regard to koi. You do have to buy what you like, but you also have to have a "goal" in mind as to whether you will enjoy your purchase for the short term or the long term. Then you can begin to try to learn about what qualities you're looking for or want. I will guarantee ANYONE one thing. The more you learn about quality, the more you will begin to see the inherent flaws in a fish, and your price point for what your new "eye" sees, will increase almost exponentially.

      Russ made a very good point about all this in his remark about what his pricing for this quality level used to be. Most dealers use price points below $200 as the "meat and potatoes" of the business model. The larger the fish for this price point, the less quality the fish will be. Many times it has to do with the "left overs" that the dealer can't even break even on anymore, considering how long they've had the fish, and they just want to move it out in order to make room for new seasonal stocks which they can sell for more money. In some of these, you might be able to find something that was missed previously, and end up with a rather nice fish for less money. But don't think you're going to walk in to a dealer every time and find these "diamonds in the rough". Dealers usually know what they have and will price accordingly. Big box and privately owned pet/fish stores don't care nor do they understand koi quality usually. They buy cheap mutts from their fish distributor, don't care really where they came from or how they were kept (qt'd). Many of these small fish will be purchased by them for no more than $1-$2 and marked up to anywhere from $3-$25 or more depending solely on size. So, if that's what tilts your kilt, then fine. But when trying to learn about what "quality" koi are, don't start there as a mutt is a mutt and will never change for the better. It's just not in their "genes" to do so.
      Good points you make, I'm in total agreement that the mutt fish at the pet stores are a whole different low quality, more like no quality. That was actually my point, the koi I've been posting may be low quality but they are still leaps above those fish at the pet stores. The only reason I brought it up was because Russ mentioned he sold koi like these for $15-$25 and I believe him, I just didn't think that was what the koi I've been posting normally go for. Around here, the mutts are around that price at petsmart and $35-$150 at the few 'specialty' pet stores I've been to and yes, they are mutts as well. I've never seen a koi around here that I could realistically identify. So for what I have compared these $50 online koi to in my area, they are very worth the $50. I really need to get to some shows so I can start to get a better feel for 'quality'.

    16. #16
      Kevin the koi guy is offline Senior Member
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      It is a journey! Buy what you can afford but really work on your husbandry and keep the fish alive. The show is a great place to meet other people who like koi! I always recommend buying fewer koi but the best quality you can afford and see what you can do to bring out the fishes potential. If you have poor water you can make a good fish bad in a short period of time. You are correct seeing a fish in person is better than in a picture but both is fun!

      Take care,
      Kevin the koi guy!

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      Comparing these two, can you tell me what you see that makes one better than the other?
      The new one is only 6" and I think would be considered a little better quality but I'd be interested to see what others think.
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      The one on the left is much worse, quality wise. To start with, just look at the hi coloring. The one on the left, the color is very uneven throughout the whole fish. In regards to doitsu varieties, you should see a very crisp line of edging to the color plates as well. Although the one on the right isn't much higher in quality, the hi is more uniform throughout and the metallic sheen is somewhat better. Not great, but better than the other fish. There is little to compare here when comparing either of these to the one in post #9!
      Last edited by koiman1950; 03-04-2015 at 04:22 PM.
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    19. #19
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      On a bonsai forum I belong to we recently had an excited person start a thread by posting a pic of a JBP (japanese black pine) and asking what it was worth. The answers ranged from about $50 to $200. I said $65 with the pot. The poster was disappointed and later revealed he decided not to buy the tree after reading our posts. I believe he said it sold at auction for $150ish. So, someone paid $150 for a tree that I thought was worth $65. Is that person wrong? Yes and no. Money is not an equal mediium. For some $150 is nothing, for another they may have to save. So, really the price is irrelevant.

      You see- pricing is only in the eye of the beholder. I've seen koi offered that are way overpriced, I've seen koi that are fair price, rarely do I see koi that are underpriced. Focus on the koi, not the price. Pricing koi will come naturally as you build your understanding of quality. The horse is before the cart, quality is before price. Keep plugging away, you'll get there quickly.
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      The one on the left is much worse, quality wise. To start with, just look at the hi coloring. The one on the left, the color is very uneven throughout the whole fish. In regards to doitsu varieties, you should see a very crisp line of edging to the color plates as well. Although the one on the right isn't much higher in quality, the hi is more uniform throughout and the metallic sheen is somewhat better. Not great, but better than the other fish. There is little to compare here when comparing either of these to the one in post #9!
      Thank you, that's what I was seeing as well. The one on the right is $230 shipped so that's why I used it. It is the best I have found so far for $200-$300 and I don't think it's worth that for me. I also think the one in post #9 looks much better quality, the ones I've found that look anywhere near that quality are $700+

      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      On a bonsai forum I belong to we recently had an excited person start a thread by posting a pic of a JBP (japanese black pine) and asking what it was worth. The answers ranged from about $50 to $200. I said $65 with the pot. The poster was disappointed and later revealed he decided not to buy the tree after reading our posts. I believe he said it sold at auction for $150ish. So, someone paid $150 for a tree that I thought was worth $65. Is that person wrong? Yes and no. Money is not an equal mediium. For some $150 is nothing, for another they may have to save. So, really the price is irrelevant.

      You see- pricing is only in the eye of the beholder. I've seen koi offered that are way overpriced, I've seen koi that are fair price, rarely do I see koi that are underpriced. Focus on the koi, not the price. Pricing koi will come naturally as you build your understanding of quality. The horse is before the cart, quality is before price. Keep plugging away, you'll get there quickly.
      I understand your point. My problem is I have good taste but not the bank account to go along with it lol. If it was just about focusing on the koi, I'd have amazing, high quality koi. I have a good eye for picking the high quality koi, I just can't afford them. So I need to focus on picking the best of the low quality koi, which is much more difficult. If I didn't have a budget, I would definitely focus on the koi and not worry about the price.

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