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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Kumonryu 13" Niigata Koi

    1. #1
      Josh H's Avatar
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      Kumonryu 13" Niigata Koi

      Hello,

      This fish is from my first batch of fish I purchased from Kodama this October, this is the picture from the auction site... After reading this forum for awhile I understand that this is not a show fish. However I am curious how those in the know will predict how this fish will grow and change... When I picked this and other fish I was trying to find a koi with, good body confirmation, large head, mouth, and tail tube. My main goals for the pond currently are to try and select fish that are female to grow large 30" or better and the pattern being the least important...
      On a side note, other threads this week have had some very high quality fish that did not grow or finish as thought, that is a very hard part of this hobby to swallow as you spend what would be considered by most as an astronomical price on high end Japanese fish to have them disappoint... still trying to wrap my brain around that one... I understand its a gamble or risk depending on how you look at it but wow... I guess I'm starting to realize why its called koikichi.
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    2. #2
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      Well, this one can change A LOT and could possibly become unrecognizable from the current pics. The sumi has a tendency, on average, to come and go and be rather unstable on most. Unfortunately, the beni spot of the right side below the lateral line would classify this as a Beni Kumonryu. The left gill plate looks problematic and the pec fins have a weird "arrow" shape to them which is not ideal. The body is just "okay". Again, the auction site should have stated male/female. This fish won't grow to jumbo size, or even much over 24".

      You mention that you're trying to grow females and to over 30". How big is your pond? What's your filtration consist of and how many fish do you plan to maintain/grow?
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Well, this one can change A LOT and could possibly become unrecognizable from the current pics. The sumi has a tendency, on average, to come and go and be rather unstable on most. Unfortunately, the beni spot of the right side below the lateral line would classify this as a Beni Kumonryu. The left gill plate looks problematic and the pec fins have a weird "arrow" shape to them which is not ideal. The body is just "okay". Again, the auction site should have stated male/female. This fish won't grow to jumbo size, or even much over 24".

      You mention that you're trying to grow females and to over 30". How big is your pond? What's your filtration consist of and how many fish do you plan to maintain/grow?
      Mike,

      Thanks for the reply, what are you seeing on the left gill plate that looks problematic?

      In regards to the sex, I purchased 10 koi from Kodama that were all listed as females... I believe that at least two of the ten are males, based on how they feed and swim... I'm not upset as they are young and I don't blame Kodama, I just didn't want to lead people as to what sex in case they were seeing something I'm not...

      Pond and filtration... Pond was built in August and is shotcrete 42' long by 18' at the widest with a small shallow area and the remainder is 8.5 deep. There are 3 bottom drains leading to a 16' x 11' by 4' at the deepest settlement and lily pond which go through a static prefilter then seperatley into two ibc tote moving beds in parallel, esbb 10500 pump to large waterfall. Second circuit is 3 4" skimmers to leaf basket then to a calypso 8500, aqua 110 uv then 4 85 gal S/G's to 7 tpr's. I also have a 120 medo for the bottom drains. System is also set up for flow through via activated carbon. I currently have 10 10-16" fish. My current goal is to add another 10 in the next year then evaluate from there... I built the system to be scalable with added intake pipes in the filter room to add more pumps is needed and I put in a 6" pipe at 8' depth to add airlift for circulation if needed in summer months.
      I also just finished the 600 gal qt tank also flow through with settlement chamber and plastic meadia bio with airlift for pump... I'm planning on attending the koi show in Orlando so I can visit with many vendors and attendee's to help me learn more about discerning quality in young fish and purchase some as well...

    4. #4
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      Thanks for the detailed pond info. It sounds, based on your dimensions, that you have somewhere around 40,000gal. Based on what equipment you have installed, it sounds like the turnover is roughly every 2 1/2 to 3 hours. That's really not too bad considering the pond size. However, if you want to grow jumbo fish, I would look to trying to improve the turnover to no less than every 2 hours with good circulation.

      As for the Kumonryu, the left gill plate seems to show that the fish was raised, when very young, in crowded conditions which can cause a "cupping" of the gill plates. This can hurt the conformation as the fish gets larger as this affliction only seems to be more visible when the fish gets to maturity and large. Looking at the body however, it appears, even if it does bulk up, that it will be a somewhat shorter/stumpier body style.

      I know you have the room, but I'd seriously suggest you not buy anything else for at least another year. The reason(s) for this are: Your pond is very new and it takes roughly three summer seasons for a system to really mature. Second, it appears that you're also new to the hobby of koi, and as such, you will find that eye changes dramatically over the first 5 years. You'll notice this when you go to koi shows, and then return home and look in your pond at YOUR fish. Most hobbyists that are serious about the quality of fish they keep are shocked at what they see and I mean this in "less than happy" way. Take the time to study and learn about what makes a koi high quality, such as bone structure, skin quality (sheen/luster) and depth of color. These are three most important things to learn/understand. Pattern being subjective, is last on the list and, with high quality fish, comes with a premium price as these are usually seen as competitive specimens for show competition. They are also farther/fewer between. If you don't care to show your fish, then the pattern isn't as important, but you'll derive more satisfaction out of watching fish with the above listed attributes continue to grow/improve.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Thanks for the detailed pond info. It sounds, based on your dimensions, that you have somewhere around 40,000gal. Based on what equipment you have installed, it sounds like the turnover is roughly every 2 1/2 to 3 hours. That's really not too bad considering the pond size. However, if you want to grow jumbo fish, I would look to trying to improve the turnover to no less than every 2 hours with good circulation.

      As for the Kumonryu, the left gill plate seems to show that the fish was raised, when very young, in crowded conditions which can cause a "cupping" of the gill plates. This can hurt the conformation as the fish gets larger as this affliction only seems to be more visible when the fish gets to maturity and large. Looking at the body however, it appears, even if it does bulk up, that it will be a somewhat shorter/stumpier body style.

      I know you have the room, but I'd seriously suggest you not buy anything else for at least another year. The reason(s) for this are: Your pond is very new and it takes roughly three summer seasons for a system to really mature. Second, it appears that you're also new to the hobby of koi, and as such, you will find that eye changes dramatically over the first 5 years. You'll notice this when you go to koi shows, and then return home and look in your pond at YOUR fish. Most hobbyists that are serious about the quality of fish they keep are shocked at what they see and I mean this in "less than happy" way. Take the time to study and learn about what makes a koi high quality, such as bone structure, skin quality (sheen/luster) and depth of color. These are three most important things to learn/understand. Pattern being subjective, is last on the list and, with high quality fish, comes with a premium price as these are usually seen as competitive specimens for show competition. They are also farther/fewer between. If you don't care to show your fish, then the pattern isn't as important, but you'll derive more satisfaction out of watching fish with the above listed attributes continue to grow/improve.
      Thanks for the feedback, what your saying makes perfect sense about the eye changing in the first few years... I also didn't realize it takes 3 summer seasons to mature the pond... Well my wife and I are going to the show and attending the seminars and such, I can't promise we won't return with some fish, you know how hard it is to explain to my DW after building this money pit to not put some more fish in it... she's actually more impulsive than me when it comes to shopping, I can see it now she will go around to each tank and whatever fish looks cute at the time will need a home in her eyes...
      In regards to the fish above, can you be more specific as to how you could tell that it will be of a shorter stature when it matures...

    6. #6
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      Well, I'm glad your wife is "at least" interested which is more than my wife has ever been. She likes the fish, and actually does a pretty good job of picking out some decent stuff, but overall, not that interested. Impulsiveness in this hobby can be very dangerous.

      As to the outcome of the Kumonryu, the body is too thick at the shoulders and the tail joint is too skinny. When you look, or buy anything at the shows, ask the dealer to show you the fish on it's side. This will give you a better idea of potential growth. the shoulders and tail area should be quite tall. The body, at a young age, shouldn't look like a finished 30" fish, but rather, more torpedo shaped. The gill plates should enter the shoulder with a smooth transition, not wider or skinnier. The head should be long and the mouth should be wide and the nose shouldn't be pointy but more symmetrically rounded.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    7. #7
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      One more thing I forgot to mention with regard to Kodama's auction site. Any fish that they don't either know the breeder or wish to not disclose it, especially in the $1 auctions, they will simply state Niigata Koi. That means the fish comes from some unknown breeder in the Niigata region, which, to date, is where they buy all their fish, other than the Omosako Shiro stocks they carry. I've yet to anything from Sakai Fish Farm, INC, Momotaro or several others located in the Hiroshima area.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    8. #8
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      I would recommend that you tell your wife to find one dealer that has the fish she wants and stay with the one dealer. Fish need to go into a quarantine tank when they come home and if you bring fish from multiple dealers, then there is absolutely no way to know where the problems come from.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    9. #9
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      17" as of October

      Here are some updated shots... I was unable to heed Mikes earlier advice and buy slowly... bought quite a few fish this summer season at shows and such, just part of the learning curve I guess...

      The beni spot has stayed the same size... This one was named Shamu by my daughter... so may be hard get rid of later...
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    10. #10
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      See what I meant about the black changing/being unstable? Having said that, it's kind of developing an interesting pattern that could change into a "killer whale" type pattern. These types of patterns command a lot more money in Japan, however they need to be on a high quality fish. This one appears, still, to be a male and the pec fins are still an issue along with a weak tail joint. The rest looks okay, but, you can put diamonds on copper or gold. There's a distinct difference between the two.

      So, how many more fish did you buy, and what varietal types? Got any pics?
      Mike

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    11. #11
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      Whatever the faults may be, that is currently a very eye catching fish. I bet it looks good in your pond.

    12. #12
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      Thumbs up

      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      See what I meant about the black changing/being unstable? Having said that, it's kind of developing an interesting pattern that could change into a "killer whale" type pattern. These types of patterns command a lot more money in Japan, however they need to be on a high quality fish. This one appears, still, to be a male and the pec fins are still an issue along with a weak tail joint. The rest looks okay, but, you can put diamonds on copper or gold. There's a distinct difference between the two.
      Well this was purchased from Kodama as female so not sure there... I appreciate the feedback and it's easier for me to "see" what your talking about now...

      So, how many more fish did you buy, and what varietal types? Got any pics?
      All total we bought around 40-50 fish but I already have plans to re-home quite a few in one to two years, I wanted to have lots of fish to watch grow out and learn as well as multiples of the same variety. Also at one of the shows I picked out a few fish I wanted with the help of some other more experienced hobbyists and then made a deal with the dealer for everything he had left over after the show at very reduced prices... I have another thread in this forum about Kohaku and I posted some pics of all the fish in my build thread... I'll post another here as well... I'm make some new critique threads as well... Thanks for all the info...
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      Holy moly thats a big pond! More like a lake...

    14. #14
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      We did a cull through on the pond this weekend, here's an updated pic of Shamoo" didn't grow much but the pattern keeps getting interesting and the white keeps getting better...
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      Looks good! I love the killer whale pattern
      Kevin the koi guy!

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      I second that!!

    17. #17
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      Update

      Pulled the fish in October, she is at 18.5" and spawned this year so lost some volume... white is still holding well and hope to show her next year...
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    18. #18
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      looks really good

    19. #19
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      Josh, did you enter the WWKC Virtual koi/goldfish Show?



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