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    Thread: New greenhouse pond with the pinnacle in filtration

    1. #41
      Paultergeist is offline Senior Member
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      Marilyn,

      this may have been discussed elsewhere, but I am very interested in learning more about your low-head, axial-pump-compatible shower set up. When you have time, I was hoping you could tell us a little more about it....? Perhaps this will be covered in an up-coming filtration description/photos?

      Paul

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    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      By having the pump push water a little over 2' up for my showers I am now getting a draw of 179 watts and a flow of between 6,000-7,000gph. I'm fine with that considering I can still do showers and not have oodles of pumps running, lol.

      Those so inclined could implement a zero lift design for their ponds. The measured draw in watts at zero (we removed the pipe extending up to my showers to test it) was 137 watts, a little less than the supplier of the pump had indicated, and flowing the full 10,000gph and perhaps a bit more.

      Anyone looking to discuss a zero lift design can start a thread and I'd be happy to discuss what I consider to be good options. I'll keep my showers.
      M, how wide and deep is your shower that you manage to make under 2' tall. Any pictures?

    3. #43
      vincesamara is offline Supporting Member
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      Nicely done Marilyn. Way to go! Beautiful new home for your beautiful kois.

    4. #44
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      I'm finding several different versions of the AF pump. Do you have a link to one you purchased?

    5. #45
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      Good to see a pond built from the beginning with energy efficiency and ease of maintenance emphasized. Many are interested in this drum filter's performance and durability.

    6. #46
      Appliance Guy's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Because it uses it no electricity it means it has no electrical components to go wrong.
      Nothing to program, nothing to worry about resetting in the event of a power failure which is all too common in my area. The last one was this past October and 11 hours long. I ended up renting a generator to try and power enough things around here to keep the fish safe and healthy.
      If my power goes out now, once it resumes, everything returns to normal operation with nary a hiccough.
      No additional pump is needed for it to do the cleaning of the drum. This is done with water pressure from the tap. That is a huge benefit. That is one less component to potentially have to replace at some point. We've all had to replace pumps so that is one less for me to worry about in the future!

      I am such a convert to this advancement in the rotary drum filtration design that I went ahead and purchased a second one in anticipation of redoing my current pond.
      Great build, thank you for sharing. I am greenhouse with envy.

      You mentioned not having to program or reset in the event of a power failure- What RDF does? And wouldn't you still need to rent a generator to supply power to pumps, no matter what RDF or filter?

      And lastly- I helped a buddy install a Blue Eco RDF. We were unable to find a Fernco fitting to fit the large port. We also found that the 4" fittings do not fit 4" Fernco fittings very well, although we were able to make that work. What did you use for the large port?

      Thanks-
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    7. #47
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Marilyn,

      this may have been discussed elsewhere, but I am very interested in learning more about your low-head, axial-pump-compatible shower set up. When you have time, I was hoping you could tell us a little more about it....? Perhaps this will be covered in an up-coming filtration description/photos?

      Paul
      That's a great idea, Paul. I'll do a more complete post with further information. I admit I scrambled a bit to get this thread together and didn't truly do it justice. I'm hoping those with questions will prod me for information. It's likely info I meant to include but forgot.

      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      M, how wide and deep is your shower that you manage to make under 2' tall. Any pictures?
      I'll do another post with it, Kevin. I will say a used a poly tub that is often used by laundry handling facilities. I knew what I had in mind and spent more than a little time on the internet trying to pin down what would work.

      Quote Originally Posted by vincesamara View Post
      Nicely done Marilyn. Way to go! Beautiful new home for your beautiful kois.
      Thank you, Vince! That means a lot. I know I enjoy my koi but it's always a treat when others do too!

      Quote Originally Posted by Jaymeseywaymsey View Post
      I'm finding several different versions of the AF pump. Do you have a link to one you purchased?
      http://alliedaqua.com/axial-flow-water-pumps.html

      I found these people extremely helpful and I purchased the 10k gph model.
      I will do another post and share more information I have from emails we exchanged.

      Quote Originally Posted by BWG View Post
      Good to see a pond built from the beginning with energy efficiency and ease of maintenance emphasized. Many are interested in this drum filter's performance and durability.
      Thank you. I'm so excited about using it. I walk by and pat it and call it my stainless steel beauty.

      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      Great build, thank you for sharing. I am greenhouse with envy.

      You mentioned not having to program or reset in the event of a power failure- What RDF does? And wouldn't you still need to rent a generator to supply power to pumps, no matter what RDF or filter?

      And lastly- I helped a buddy install a Blue Eco RDF. We were unable to find a Fernco fitting to fit the large port. We also found that the 4" fittings do not fit 4" Fernco fittings very well, although we were able to make that work. What did you use for the large port?

      Thanks-
      about greenhouse envy.

      I could be mistaken but I thought the other RDF's had electronics which controlled the number of cleanings done, meaning you could choose to let the unit run on a default setting or increase it if you preferred if to clean more frequently. I know they have some kind of circuitry but since I don't own one, I am not the best resource for exactly what use for what.

      Yes, I would still need to use some kind of battery or generator back up in case of extended power failure but the difference now is that I can run both a water pump (for 180 watts at this height for showers) and an 80lph air pump for less than a single water pump was using. That means the draw on a gennie or battery back up is drastically less. It also means if I use a gas gennie I won't be out there as often filling it up with gasoline.

      On the Fernco fittings, I am not sure exactly what fittings Russ used but any good irrigation supply will have a good variety. I know it was purchased locally with ease which means finding it on the internet shouldn't be a problem.
      Since some are made to transition from clay to pvc, I think it just takes knowing the inside dimensions of what you're trying to do and the irrigation or plumbing supply store could help with the rest.
      Last edited by Marilyn; 01-27-2015 at 09:18 PM.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    8. #48
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      First, I'm not altogether sure that the axial flow pump it the best option for a shower but I had to try it out. Now will come the fine tuning... do I leave it as lifting to the shower or do I implement a smaller water pump for just the showers and drop the axial flow pump down so that it's only moving water through the Lithaqua basin and then returning to the tank?
      Frankly, I don't know at this point. The pump is pushing the water to the 2' height but for showers and the Bakki media, I would likely be happiest if I was getting more the classic spray bar discharge over the media. This pump simply won't do that nor will I ask it to.

      But... if I drop it down so that it's only moving water through the Lithaqua basin and return it over the top of the pond and use one of my little Sequence 750 pumps for the shower I can be moving a lot more water for not that much more electricity because the axial flow pump draws more watts as you increase the head.

      Bottom line, the axial flow will definitely be used to move the bulk of the water in the system because it's silly not do so. 137 watts to move 10k+gph is too good not take advantage of.
      I can go with a 40lph air pum (~40 watts), the 10k+gph pump (137 watts at zero head) and the Sequence pump at 127 watts (or less but until I try it out I won't know) and be moving essentially double the water I was in the old pond for pretty much 1/4 the electricity.

      It's still too early to say for sure how I will have this set up or how committed I am to keeping the showers. If I could content myself with a moving bed then I could nix the showers, still have the Lithaqua in the bottom of the basin and be moving the 10k gallons with the single axial flow pump.

      Is anybody else's head starting to spin?

      I basically wanted the Koiphen family to see there are economical options out there. Viable ones.
      I'll start another post with more info I have regarding the pumps.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    9. #49
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      There is a certain RDF filter on the market that had reported problems with its controller after conditions of the power cycling on and off. Changes have been made to the unit since introduction but posts still come in about electrical issues. The Blue Eco drum filter with its simple indexing system and lack of electronic controller, gear box, electric motor, chains and sprockets definitely can be a game changer. Only time will tell.

    10. #50
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Here is some of the information I got from this company via email about the pump:

      "The published flow rates for our Axial Pumps are rated at 1.5 feet, but we also provide "zero head flow rates" as well, which are slightly higher. These pumps are fine tuned for 1-2 feet range of head, so are ideally suited for these types of applications. At 2 feet of head, you should expect a 16% decrease in flow rates compared to "zero head flow rate". At 3 feet of head, you should expect about a 30% decrease. At 4 feet of head you should expect about a 48% decrease. At 5 feet, they are a trickle in comparison to zero head, maybe 2000 GPH at best for both the 8,000 and 10,000 models (not worth using at all at that head height). These pumps are extremely efficient in low head/low pressure applications, but they start to lose that efficiency pretty quickly as head increases. If you are able to work with 2 foot head or less, they are an ideal choice. "

      I also asked about the reliability as that had been questioned when these pumps were mentioned on this forum previously.

      "We've sold a lot of these units in their different sizes. I'd guess several hundred at least. I've installed about two dozen of these units in various applications myself, and I've been very happy with them. The oldest installation is about 4 years old now and has been running continuously, even in winter for that duration. Out of all the ones we've sold, I only recall two coming back for repair/service. One was due to a shorted power cord, probably from an animal chewing on it. The other had a locked up motor, which appeared to be due to overvoltage issues with the power source."

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

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    11. #51
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      So it should be apparent, these pumps don't work the same way as almost all of the current models we are familiar with do
      A simple analogy would be to that of swimming pools. Most pond people understand that pools are plumbed very inefficiently. Using these pumps, you realize that potentially we might not be plumbing our ponds as efficiently as we could be.

      The pumps need very little restriction in the plumbing to work to their potential.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    12. #52
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      Now on to that big old bin... I have scoured my emails and found I went with this company and model:

      http://www.globalindustrial.com/prod...emKey/30709712

      The sucker is huge but I love that in a media container.
      We put a plastic tray like is used for the pond-less waterfalls setups to keep the Bakki media from the bottom of the tray. The media is stacked cross-hatch style in there.
      There are a couple of 4" holes in the front bottom of the bin which sits over that corner of the tank to return the water to the tank/pond.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #53
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      I'll try and get some more pics tomorrow and go into further detail but if anyone has a question, please don't hesitate to ask!

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    14. #54
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      Talk about popular girl!

      53 post in less than two days AND you included pictures.

      Good for you and keep it coming. Glad to see you back.

    15. #55
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Now on to that big old bin... I have scoured my emails and found I went with this company and model:

      http://www.globalindustrial.com/prod...emKey/30709712

      The sucker is huge but I love that in a media container.
      We put a plastic tray like is used for the pond-less waterfalls setups to keep the Bakki media from the bottom of the tray. The media is stacked cross-hatch style in there.
      There are a couple of 4" holes in the front bottom of the bin which sits over that corner of the tank to return the water to the tank/pond.
      From the product picture, I would never have guessed that bin can hold 145 gal. That is larger than four 48" StakPak trays combined. Good find!

      I never liked spray bar for shower. If you can find perforated stainless sheet similar to this with the right hole size and density, it works pretty well for distributing the water flow in low pressure application.


    16. #56
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      ....Bottom line, the axial flow will definitely be used to move the bulk of the water in the system because it's silly not do so. 137 watts to move 10k+gph is too good not take advantage of.....
      Marilyn, thank you for continuing to up-date and add information to this thread. I feel as though you are truly "pushing the envelope" a bit, and we will all benefit from your efforts.

      I had vaguely heard of axial-flow pumps before, but they seemed exotic, rare to find, and expensive -- or at least so I assumed. Your design is shattering those (pre)conceptions. As you may know, I have been very enthusiastic about airlifts in the past, but the performance numbers stated for these axial-flow pumps -- if reasonably accurate -- are very compelling and pretty much negate any expectation on my part that an airlift could do much/any better in terms of water flow/energy. There is also a matter of cost: I am quite far from from ever spending 3-5K on an RDF -- regardless of how good they may be -- but I can manage a $400 investment in an axial-flow pump. Again, a very compelling idea.

      I look forward to learning more from your efforts. Thank you for sharing this with us all.

      Paul

    17. #57
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Marilyn, thank you for continuing to up-date and add information to this thread. I feel as though you are truly "pushing the envelope" a bit, and we will all benefit from your efforts.

      I had vaguely heard of axial-flow pumps before, but they seemed exotic, rare to find, and expensive -- or at least so I assumed. Your design is shattering those (pre)conceptions. As you may know, I have been very enthusiastic about airlifts in the past, but the performance numbers stated for these axial-flow pumps -- if reasonably accurate -- are very compelling and pretty much negate any expectation on my part that an airlift could do much/any better in terms of water flow/energy. There is also a matter of cost: I am quite far from from ever spending 3-5K on an RDF -- regardless of how good they may be -- but I can manage a $400 investment in an axial-flow pump. Again, a very compelling idea.

      I look forward to learning more from your efforts. Thank you for sharing this with us all.

      Paul
      Hi Paul,

      There is a very good chance that I will be building a few more systems, similar to this, but with out the showers later on in the year. They will be approximately 7,500 gallons each and will again use the axial flow pumps and the Blue Eco RDF's. Both of these items are pretty impressive so far.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    18. #58
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      There is controversy if this pump actually produces the output numbers stated. A quick Google search of this imported pump shows multiple conflicting output ratings. No different than optimistic ratings of conventional pond pumps. The two foot head rating is also with pipe and fittings head loss included.

      This was brought up before and the vendor was going to publish an actual metered test with results. I want to believe the output ratings but the numbers seem to be somewhat optimistic compared to name brand axial pumps by reputable companies.
      Last edited by BWG; 01-28-2015 at 02:23 PM.

    19. #59
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      Wow... this is so awesome.. congratulations Marilyn!!
      DAN







    20. #60
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Hi Paul,
      There is a very good chance that I will be building a few more systems, similar to this, but with out the showers later on in the year. They will be approximately 7,500 gallons each and will again use the axial flow pumps and the Blue Eco RDF's. Both of these items are pretty impressive so far.
      Hi Russ,

      Thank you for providing that additional information. I have the highest of regards for your skills and craftsmanship in pond-building (I still recall the infamous "Rainblood" pond build!). I am sure that I speak for many forum members when I say that *we* will be delighted to observe vicariously these up-coming builds of yours, to whatever extent you may feel like sharing details and posting photos, etc. I look forward to learning of your efforts and thoughts with respect to these pond builds.

      Paul

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