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    Thread: Yes, yet another Bead Filter thread

    1. #1
      ggmd is offline Senior Member
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      Cool Yes, yet another Bead Filter thread

      Hi-
      First Id like to say Hi. Ive been reading the blog religiously and have come to appreciate the diverse but helpful opinions and advice on the site. I am in the planning stages to install a 7,000 gallon pond in a year - and am using the time to research everything. Im leaning toward the Adv Sac Koi system - with the idea of using the back washing to supplement watering the garden and plants. I came across the Genesis system and they seem near identical - and are $500 cheaper. So - exploring now to see if anybody on here has experience with these - or advice. I will be adding the vortex ss as a pre-filter to whatever unit I eventually do go with. I am open to all suggestions and reading .
      Thanks
      in Advance

      GG

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      knowing what I have spent on filters and upgrades not to mention time wasted on upkeep of filters I will offer another option

      rdf to moving bed uv back to pond or

      rdf uv to shower back to pond...

      yes this will cost more in the beginning but in the long run it is cheaper..

      I have gone through 3 different filter set ups on my pond and the time I spent cleaning the filters was crazy..

      now am running the first option and love it.. I spend maybe 20 minutes a week... with my old set ups I was about 3 hours a week...
      Last edited by kwickcut; 11-17-2014 at 02:07 PM.
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    3. #3
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      An ultima 10000 and a sieve prefilter might be a better way

    4. #4
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      ...
      Last edited by sandthemall; 11-18-2014 at 12:24 AM.

    5. #5
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      If I were to do a 7k gallon pond it would be Profidrum RDF to a 15 cu ft shower at 7500 gph to TPRs for the 2 drains...and same RDF to an Ultima II 6000 to UV at 3500 gph to waterfall for the 3 skimmers.
      I would get one skimmer with an integrated overflow and I would add a 2-4 cu ft chloramine filter for trickle flow into the RDF.

      Next step down in budget for me, would be Ultrasieve III to Ultima II 20,000 to 10 cu ft shower at 6000 gph for the 2 drains...and an Ultima II 4000 to UV at 3000 gpj to waterfall for the TPRs. Add overflow and trickleflow.

      I use an Ultima II to water the back yard every week. The trick is get an efficient plumbing layout and plan for changes etc. It's a lot of water (1,050 @ 15%) to pump each week unless you have water a storage container underground.
      Last edited by sandthemall; 11-17-2014 at 03:52 PM.

    6. #6
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      I have not used the Genesis system, but it looks to be similar to the SacKoi Advantage, which I am running the 15 on a 4000 gallon pond. I like the SacKoi filter design and though mine was version 1 which had a problem with one of the plumbing pieces, repaired at no charge. Few on here have run the true bead filters and have a host of other options that they prefer. I think if I was doing my pond over again, I would use a sieve instead of a vortex for solids separation, but what ever you use for solids, do something, as the bead filters will capture all of that waste and need daily backwash without getting the majority of the big trash out before.
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      Im seeing the light regarding the RDF- but please excuse my ignorance but what is a moving bed? - I will be totally excavating my back yard for this project so I was actually contemplating flushing waste into a concealed container that would allow for drip lines to shrubs, and organic gardens. I've always ran 0.3% salinity - does this pose a problem with the metal drums in the RDF's? It seems even with RDF's some people still use bead filters down line for mixed bio/mech - I think I prefer rdf over seive- just need to save up now.....

      Thanks everyone for your insights and comments.

    8. #8
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      yes for sure, do an RDF, simple Norm Walsh.... equals gin clear like drinking water you will not be sorry and save tons of money doing it correctly the first time, don't make the mistakes that I have

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      Quote Originally Posted by frankl View Post
      yes for sure, do an RDF, simple Norm Walsh.... equals gin clear like drinking water you will not be sorry and save tons of money doing it correctly the first time, don't make the mistakes that I have
      I will second that!! I spend $8,000 originally with a filtration system that never worked and finally installed Profifdrum RDF plus showers for bio 7 months ago and have never been happier. I used to spend hours per week cleaning the old filtration system and now cleaning is one time every 8 to 12 months and only takes 5 minutes. If design correctly, you can have a 6'x6' filter pit to run a 12,000 to 17,000 gallon pond.
      Last edited by vipertom1970; 11-19-2014 at 02:50 PM.

    10. #10
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      I really think an RDF/moving bed is the best option out there. Everything is at water level or below, no head loss so you can use a smaller pump, or airlift or axial flow pump. Gravity flow a skimmer and a very small DC aquarium pump for your water fall so you can fine tune your falls, or turn them off all together.

      Side note: what's a better bio filter: moving bed or submerged cermedia bed?

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      Quote Originally Posted by ggmd View Post
      Im seeing the light regarding the RDF- but please excuse my ignorance but what is a moving bed? - I will be totally excavating my back yard for this project so I was actually contemplating flushing waste into a concealed container that would allow for drip lines to shrubs, and organic gardens. I've always ran 0.3% salinity - does this pose a problem with the metal drums in the RDF's? It seems even with RDF's some people still use bead filters down line for mixed bio/mech - I think I prefer rdf over seive- just need to save up now.....

      Thanks everyone for your insights and comments.
      as far as i know any metal that would be used should and would be stainless steel..
      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jaymeseywaymsey View Post
      I really think an RDF/moving bed is the best option out there. Everything is at water level or below, no head loss so you can use a smaller pump, or airlift or axial flow pump. Gravity flow a skimmer and a very small DC aquarium pump for your water fall so you can fine tune your falls, or turn them off all together.

      Side note: what's a better bio filter: moving bed or submerged cermedia bed?
      Not sure I agree with this recommendation. James, what size moving bed would be needed to handle the flow from an rdf? Smaller pumps would depend on how much head is required to be overcome AFTER the pump and the necessary flow rates to handle the flow from the RDF. True, you can get different size RDF units, but sizing it to fit the pond and the rest of the filtration system, along with proper sized plumbing needs to be thought through first. Then, knowing what size stocking density/feed rates you're planning for will also need to fit the equation.

      .As to the better bio filter, a moving bed over static bed would be recommended, but if you want the BEST bio filtering, showers are really hard to beat/
      Mike

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    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by ggmd View Post
      Im seeing the light regarding the RDF- but please excuse my ignorance but what is a moving bed? - I will be totally excavating my back yard for this project so I was actually contemplating flushing waste into a concealed container that would allow for drip lines to shrubs, and organic gardens. I've always ran 0.3% salinity - does this pose a problem with the metal drums in the RDF's? It seems even with RDF's some people still use bead filters down line for mixed bio/mech - I think I prefer rdf over seive- just need to save up now.....

      Thanks everyone for your insights and comments.
      Why?
      Mike

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    14. #14
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      Though the showers are by far one of the best filters systems, it is not for all climates. If you are located where cold weather will chill your pond beyond where you would like for it to bottom out, then a system that bypasses the waterfalls and showers would be in order. If the bio is shower and has to be shut down, then there would be no bio for those months. I personally heat my ponds to maintain a temperature over 60, as I think that fish kept warm come through spring better, and as such I would have to enclose my shower with my pond over the winter. Some also don't care for the noise of the showers, though I haven't been around one to know how bad it is. I would expect similar to a turbulent waterfall.
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    15. #15
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      I've used the SacKoi15 on my pond since it's inception 8 years ago. My pond is 10k including filtration and it has always done a great job. ZERO complaints. That being said, I DO have a settling chamber before the filter. In my opinion 500 bucks is nothing considering how long you will use the filter.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by ggmd View Post
      Im seeing the light regarding the RDF- but please excuse my ignorance but what is a moving bed? - I will be totally excavating my back yard for this project so I was actually contemplating flushing waste into a concealed container that would allow for drip lines to shrubs, and organic gardens. I've always ran 0.3% salinity - does this pose a problem with the metal drums in the RDF's? It seems even with RDF's some people still use bead filters down line for mixed bio/mech - I think I prefer rdf over seive- just need to save up now.....

      Thanks everyone for your insights and comments.

      Here's a short video illustrating the RDF>>>MB>>>Pump combination.....



      There are a couple threads on the board showing the installation of cisterns to collect waste/water change water that is then used for irrigation.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ase&highlight=

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...ons&highlight=

      The salt at 0.3% would not be a problem for a ProfiDrum but it may be for any plants you plan to water with it.


      I love a good red.

    17. #17
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      The salt will be a problem over time. Even 0.1% over time without a lot of rainfall will build up in the soil. Since the OP's location is in "the United States" we cannot assume they will have enough rainfall to prevent this.

      Why do you keep the salinity at 0.3%.

      Currently I have Sac 10's and no experience with Genesis. The Sac's were an improvement but I to am switching to a Profidrum. Also considering getting rid of my Moving Beds and switching to pressurized showers to prevent the winter cooling that open showers pose in the Winter (and possibly extra humidity in the filter house). This will hopefully address Rich's concern.

      If I were doing it all over again with the experiences (and sticker shock) that I have had. I would do as Tom and start out just going for a high end system and save the modifications over the years. The Sac system is very high end from where I started but the RDF's do seem to be the future and cost about the same by the time it all "pencils out".

      Every ones needs and starting points are different.

      Good luck,
      Last edited by montwila; 11-22-2014 at 01:59 PM.

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      ggmd is offline Senior Member
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      Hi -
      Thanks for all the input. I appreciate all the advice and have spent the past 2 days reading up on the RDF benefits. Ive kept salinity between .25-.3% at the recommendation of Kodama koi where I purchased all my koi from. They told me it aids in maintaining the slime coat and buffers the effect of nitrate spikes that sometimes accompany new bio-filters. It seems maintaining some salinity is a common practice and I think the colors of some of the fish have improved in vibrancy - but maybe its in my mind.
      My master plan for the build out is to have the ability to divert some waste water for aquaponic purposes - garden veggies and such - so eliminating/ lowering salt is something that Id really like to do from that perspective. I take it nobody adjusts salinity here?

    19. #19
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      Nope, no salt at all for the vast majority. Kodama is right, "when mitigating factors of new bio filters". But with an established filter system, there should be no cause of nitrite spikes or need to give the fish "additional" slime coat. They're plenty slimy as is.

      steve

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      I agree, salt is only beneficial when dealing with Nitrite spikes. Now, over the first 2-3 years, you do need to keep monitoring your ammonia/nitrite readings during spring. You can get ammonia and nitrite spikes at that time of year as your filters are not totally established. The bacteria will decrease in population over the winter due to much lower temps and then have to repopulate as the water warms. How much this occurs each year will depend on your location and local seasonal temp swings. But, no, in general, I haven't put salt in any of my systems for the past 15+years!
      Mike

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