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    Thread: Need help on pumps please!

    1. #1
      Joel143's Avatar
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      Need help on pumps please!

      First hello everyone, I'm new to the forum only been on for a short time. I'm learning so much but also because theres so much great information here I'm getting confused. Yes, I'm a newbie, but I'm so trying to understand. I'm trying to design my pond before construction but am stuck on the pump(s). I am looking at nearly a 4000 gal pond 10ft wide by 15ft long and hopefully 4ft deep. I want 2ft below and 2ft above ground. I will be doing a DIY bio filter utilizing three to four 55 gal containers. I will be placing a waterfall roughly 3ft above ground level and will be placing a skimmer as well. Maybe about 20 koi at the most when it comes to fish. My question is pumps. How many and what gph am I looking at; needing? This is whats confusing me and where I get lost in deciding what I need.

      I know I'm probably leaving out information needed to answer my question but any information is greatly appreciated. Naturally I would like pumps that are easy on the electric bill. I would like to go with external pumps.

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    2. #2
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      Pump or pumps are determined by the filter needs. As an example a 4000 gallon pond could be filtered by two S/G filters. These can be supplied by one 4500 gph pump, like the Evolution ES 4500, which is a low head/high flow pump. If you were going with a bead filter you would need a medium head/medium flow pump, like the Evolution ESS series pumps.

      Are you installing a bottom drain?

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
      Pump or pumps are determined by the filter needs. As an example a 4000 gallon pond could be filtered by two S/G filters. These can be supplied by one 4500 gph pump, like the Evolution ES 4500, which is a low head/high flow pump. If you were going with a bead filter you would need a medium head/medium flow pump, like the Evolution ESS series pumps.

      Are you installing a bottom drain?
      Actually I was visualizing a pump pulling from the bottom as a bottom drain. A relative gave me a brand new Alpine Cyclone 4000 Magnetic-Drive Pond Water Pump (external) but figured it wouldn't be enough. I was also looking at getting an ESS 7800. I was looking at something similar to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFhNBq_dycw utilizing pads or other material. I wouldn't mind a bead filter - could you recommend one or size that could do the job for a pond my size? Now if I would go with a bead filter, and use say the ESS 7800 could I utilize the Cyclone 4000 on a S/G filter? Or would I need a more powerful pump for the S/G?
      Last edited by Joel143; 10-17-2014 at 09:24 AM.

    4. #4
      icu2's Avatar
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      The problem with running the BD straight to the pump is it will grind up poop and debris and make it
      more difficult to filter out.
      A good way to avoid this is to place a filter and gravity feed it from the BD before the pump, and that way
      you're filtering debris out before the pump. Here's and example of a simple gravity fed design:

      Name:  2 pumps with sg filter mb and bd.jpg
Views: 686
Size:  45.7 KB

      There are many different ways to design a system, but each different filter has to work well
      together... and like Birdman said, the pump is based on the filters. Make a plan and then get the
      pump last.
      --Steve



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    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      The problem with running the BD straight to the pump is it will grind up poop and debris and make it
      more difficult to filter out.
      A good way to avoid this is to place a filter and gravity feed it from the BD before the pump, and that way
      you're filtering debris out before the pump. Here's and example of a simple gravity fed design:

      Name:  2 pumps with sg filter mb and bd.jpg
Views: 686
Size:  45.7 KB

      There are many different ways to design a system, but each different filter has to work well
      together... and like Birdman said, the pump is based on the filters. Make a plan and then get the
      pump last.

      Steve thanks so much. That diagram is what I needed. I will follow it. Sorry but one last question, would the two pumps I mentioned previously be enough? Using say the ES 4500 leading to the S/G and the Alpine I already have on the skimmer?

    6. #6
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      It's hard to say as I don't know anything about the Alpine pump, but for a smaller pond I like to
      shoot for 1 1/2 to 2 times per hour turnover (6-8k/gph for 4000g pond) but you have to take into
      account head loss of the bead filter and such too.

      All filters have certain "speed" limits, or a max flow rate where they work best... s/g filters are 2000gph,
      55g settling chambers are also about 2000gph, etc...
      When figuring how the system is going to be designed, all those things need to be taken into account.
      Knowing you want to flow, say 8000gph total, then figuring the best way of getting that amount of water
      out of the pond, filtered, and back into the pond the best way possible, is the challenge.
      --Steve



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    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      It's hard to say as I don't know anything about the Alpine pump, but for a smaller pond I like to
      shoot for 1 1/2 to 2 times per hour turnover (6-8k/gph for 4000g pond) but you have to take into
      account head loss of the bead filter and such too.

      All filters have certain "speed" limits, or a max flow rate where they work best... s/g filters are 2000gph,
      55g settling chambers are also about 2000gph, etc...
      When figuring how the system is going to be designed, all those things need to be taken into account.
      Knowing you want to flow, say 8000gph total, then figuring the best way of getting that amount of water
      out of the pond, filtered, and back into the pond the best way possible, is the challenge.

      Thanks Steve for your input. What you state now clears up my confusion as you mentioned out of pond, filter back to pond...that I know see was my confusion. My Alpine does 4000gph (3032gph for 5' head loss) i plan on purchasing the ESS9600 which will do what I need if not more. Either way I see what I need to do......I think..haha
      Last edited by Joel143; 10-17-2014 at 05:56 PM.

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joel143 View Post
      Thanks Steve for your input. What you state now clears up my confusion as you mentioned out of pond, filter back to pond...that I know see was my confusion. My Alpine does 4000gph (3032gph for 5' head loss) i plan on purchasing the ESS9600 which will do what I need if not more. Either way I see what I need to do......I think..haha

      Hey Steve sorry another question, I seen the topic Birdman posted on his DIY biofilter. I would like to do that make for mine. As a confused newbie can you suggest how many I would run for my 4000 gal pond and what size pump Iwould need. His setup really stands out to me. I really appreciate your replies aand hope my questions don't hold you up.

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joel143 View Post
      Thanks Steve for your input. What you state now clears up my confusion as you mentioned out of pond, filter back to pond...that I know see was my confusion. My Alpine does 4000gph (3032gph for 5' head loss) i plan on purchasing the ESS9600 which will do what I need if not more. Either way I see what I need to do......I think..haha
      the thing with the ESS 7800's and 9600's...those ratings are with 3" pipe ,,,just so you know....... if you use 2" pipe the only benefit will be more head pressure available.....but they are just as good as sequence or performance pro

    10. #10
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      The pump is the last thing you will buy. For now concentrate on figuring out filtration and flow rate to service 20 fish.
      Then buy no more than 8... 500 gallons per fish will make your life less stressful and keep your koi healthier.
      If you are set on 20 fish, plan to triple your turnover and use a large shower filter.

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    11. #11
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joel143 View Post
      Hey Steve sorry another question, I seen the topic Birdman posted on his DIY biofilter. I would like to do that make for mine. As a confused newbie can you suggest how many I would run for my 4000 gal pond and what size pump Iwould need. His setup really stands out to me. I really appreciate your replies aand hope my questions don't hold you up.
      I'd second sandthemall in that 20 koi is too many for 4000 gallons unless the filtration and flow is increased a lot more than what seems to be planned.

      But all bio filters should be based on how many and size of fish, not water volume. If these are the bio filters you're looking at, they also seem to work best at
      under 2500 gph. I ran a couple of them for a while and they worked great, but the one thing I'd add to the design is a drain on the bottom. Mine
      did need cleaning occasionally and makes it a lot easier.
      --Steve



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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'd second sandthemall in that 20 koi is too many for 4000 gallons unless the filtration and flow is increased a lot more than what seems to be planned.

      But all bio filters should be based on how many and size of fish, not water volume. If these are the bio filters you're looking at, they also seem to work best at
      under 2500 gph. I ran a couple of them for a while and they worked great, but the one thing I'd add to the design is a drain on the bottom. Mine
      did need cleaning occasionally and makes it a lot easier.
      My 10 koi in 800 gallons concur...

    13. #13
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      Thanks everyone for your replies.

      Can I do this - could my 4000gph pump run two S/G being fed from a skimmer? I can get a larger pump if need be because I would like two S/G filters. I can do a B/D which is gravity fed to a filter - suggestion on a pump I would need? Kinda comes down to utilizing the pump I already have in some way along with any other pump I would require to use.

      OK 8 fish it is....was hoping for more. Anything I can do to increase this number?

      Sorry guys, I feel kinda bad being a newbie and feeling alittle naive in all of this. I know I've asked questions that are answered over and over again. I know I want a skimmer, at least two S/G filters and a B/D filter. My confusion after that is the pump or pumps needed to move the required gallons of water.

      Could a trickle tower/rack be incorporated? Read some where that these are even better than S/G - don't know if that's true.
      Last edited by Joel143; 10-18-2014 at 06:39 AM.

    14. #14
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      You don't need a ESS 9600. Way to big for your needs. And if you install your pump in a filter pit after your settling tank you don't even need a self priming pump.
      I am a big fan of the DIY Sand/Gravel filters. Over the years I have tried just about everything and they just can't be beat. Two 55 gallon S/G filters can easily handle a 4000 gallon pond.
      I would run your bottom drain into a settling tank. Tee the skimmer line into the outlet of the settling tank line and feed this line into the suction of your pump. I think your Alpine pump would be to small. I would go with something bigger like the Evolution ES 5500. Run the outlet of the pump through a good UV like the EVO 55, then split the flow to two S/G filters. One can supply a waterfall, the other can supply a couple of TPRs.

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by birdman View Post
      You don't need a ESS 9600. Way to big for your needs. And if you install your pump in a filter pit after your settling tank you don't even need a self priming pump.
      I am a big fan of the DIY Sand/Gravel filters. Over the years I have tried just about everything and they just can't be beat. Two 55 gallon S/G filters can easily handle a 4000 gallon pond.
      I would run your bottom drain into a settling tank. Tee the skimmer line into the outlet of the settling tank line and feed this line into the suction of your pump. I think your Alpine pump would be to small. I would go with something bigger like the Evolution ES 5500. Run the outlet of the pump through a good UV like the EVO 55, then split the flow to two S/G filters. One can supply a waterfall, the other can supply a couple of TPRs.

      Thanks Birdman for the reply. My mind is starting to clear and things are starting to make sense. I will invest in the ES 5500. So BD and skimmer to settling chamber, settling chamber to pump, pump to UV, UV split to both S/G, one S/G to waterfall second to TPRs....right? As far as one supplying a couple of TPRs, would that give enough force to cause a nice current being that its coming from a S/G? How big would you suggest for the settling chamber? I've been reading 10% which would mean 400 gallons....that's big! What about a DIY sieve filter instead?

      Also, sorry but, anything I can do to increase my fish total? 8 seems alittle "small" for 4000gal. Maybe like 10 to 12? I understand when small the system can handle it that the problem comes the larger they grow.

      As far as the Trickle filter - I asked because I read the thread posted by Ryan S. [DIY] Combo TT/Shower and Aerated Moving Bed . It seemed like another nice system.

      So basically the Alphine pump I have already can't be used for anything? OK, hypathecially, can it be used in an emergency if the ES burns out for any reason while I'm waiting on a replacement? Sorry its just I hate to see something new (given) go to waste.
      Last edited by Joel143; 10-23-2014 at 09:51 AM.

    16. #16
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      Skimmer does not go into settling tank. A settling tank settles out heavier than water solid waste. Skimmer waste floats. Tie your skimmer line into the exit line coming out of the settling tank.
      The number of fish you put into your pond depends on many factors, but to help you, if you stay with males they won't get as big as females, so you can have more. Only buy special fish you really want. Don't just go out and but fish to make numbers. Over the years there will be additional fish that catch your eye so don't be in a hurry to fill the pond with fish.

      Bio filtration, take a minute to read my "Filtration Basics" in the stickys.

    17. #17
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      Well after closer measurements seems my pond will be closer to 5000 gal rather than 4000 gal. Figure that's ok. I will make it as big as I can. My liner is a Premium grade RPE liner 30' x 24'. So am looking at 16' long by 10' wide and 4' deep. Would of enjoyed getting a box welded one but the price for those are alittle too much for me.....right now. Maybe in the future for another pond. Now to refigure everything. Already got the ESS5500 pump. Trying to get the 55gal drums for the S/G filters and the M/B. Thought they would be easy to find but in my area I have found people holding on to them for whatever reason. Hoping I don't have to buy new ones. They seem alittle pricey. Expecting my B/D's to arrive any day along with the skimmer. I think everything is slowly falling into place. I would like to get everything on hand before I even start digging. Been basically reading as much as I can on this forum. So much information to take in. It's all great and sound stuff....just so much (in a good way).

      Oh, is it best to attach a priming pot/leaf trap to the pump?
      Last edited by Joel143; 10-22-2014 at 12:01 PM.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joel143 View Post
      Oh, is it best to attach a priming pot/leaf trap to the pump?
      Yes. They are the last line of defense for the pump and you'd be amazed at what makes it past filters!

      I would start digging whenever you can... I changed my mind several times a long the way and it took
      me a couple of years to complete each pond, so if I'd bought everything before I started, I would have
      had to wait a year and then I would have had to resell things as I changed my mind.
      --Steve



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    19. #19
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Yes. They are the last line of defense for the pump and you'd be amazed at what makes it past filters!

      I would start digging whenever you can... I changed my mind several times a long the way and it took
      me a couple of years to complete each pond, so if I'd bought everything before I started, I would have
      had to wait a year and then I would have had to resell things as I changed my mind.

      Well definitely will have to get a priming pot to attach to the pump. Well for me I'm making the pond as big as I can at this time. No way I can make it bigger in the spot I am placing it. So that's why I figured I would get everything before I start digging. The other parts of my yard are not suitable at this time. At it is my pond will be 4ft deep and a raised pond. I'm slowing testing areas to see if I might be able to dig to put at least 2ft below ground level. Reason being is the first house on my lot burned down and another house (my present house) was built on top of the area. I planted a few fruit trees no where near my existing house and found water lines. Some where not sealed off from the main line. So I need to be careful and yes its a headache knowing there are water lines live still there. I do have planned to have a plumber come in and check the water line to my house. There is only one line entering my home from the main line. If in fact my main line is only to my home, I can contact the city and have them check out where those other waterlines are coming from. Once that is done then lookout I would put my entire back yard as a pond if I could. But for now the size I planned is the largest I can have for a while so I think I will be pleased of the size......again just for now. I'm hoping that I can dig because having a 4ft raised pond is nice but tall if you want to sit and watch your fish. We will see because I have my brother coming this weekend to help me dig a small trench area the length of the pond. If we don't hit any lines as we go down then I can place at least part of the pond inground. That's why the last thing I will get is the 4x4 wooden beams. Once I get the wood then it will be digging time.

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      Was thinking, so please if anyone could give their opinion, I was going with 2 x 55gal S/G filters. Could I use one 100 gal Rubbermaid trough instead? I will have a moving media, skimmer, waterfall, etc., but was hoping I could use just one trough instead.

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