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    Thread: Algae bloom and PH on the rise

    1. #1
      DBibbins's Avatar
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      Algae bloom and PH on the rise

      Last week both air temps and pond water temps cooled down for this time of year. This week not so much, and It started a nice algae bloom in the pond. My PH always stays a constant 8.3 and over the last few days has been rising, today 8.6-8.8 (using high range drop test, no digital so those numbers are as close to chart as I can get). I know that as long as I dont have swings from AM to PM the koi can handle the higher PH, I wont know if PH is swinging until I test again in morning. I just wanted to be prepared as far as what I should do if there is a large PH swing, and Im not sure what that is.

      3500 gal- 13 koi (pond 10 yrs old/ koi 9-11 yrs old)
      pond temp/84 ( there is a large arbor covered with shade cloth over pond)
      ammonia/0
      Nitrite/0
      nitrate/20 (was only about 10, it is also rising a little)
      KH/10 drops (use baking soda)
      GH/30
      rinse filters and do 200gal (600 gal total per week) water changes every mon, wed, and fri.

      I havent had an algae bloom in years so I'm guessing that it has something to do with a new filter set up this spring with all new mechanical and bio media (had to go through the new pond syndrome cycle in spring).

      I know that GH doesnt play a huge role in the pond but it most be of some importance. Should I be concerned that mine is only 30? It comes out of tap that way and I have never tried to change it.

      Thank you
      Deb
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

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    2. #2
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      To our fellow members:

      Please refrain from responding with possible answers, opinions and or protocols until such time as we receive answers to the relevant questions. We can all take a lesson from the veterinarian trade as they often ask many questions and continue in that same vein until such time as they can correctly assess the situation and then, and only then, do they begin suggesting methods and or treatments to resolve the problems as they were first described.

    3. #3
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      Deb, I found an older Doc Roddy thread.
      If you have a significant algae bloom, the pH will be low at dawn and high at dusk, since algae drops pH at night and increases it during daylight hours. It is not uncommon during algae blooms to have a pH of 5 at dawn and a pH of 11 at dusk. If this is the case, getting control of the algae bloom is critical to stabilizing pH.

      However, if the algae bloom can not be quickly brought under control, the "best" secondary approach is to increase both KH and GH in an attempt to stabilize the pH daily swings from the algae bloom. I recommend keeping KH in the 100 to 500 ppm range by baking soda addition and GH in the 150 to 250 ppm range with calcium chloride flake addition to stabilize pH somewhat during algae blooms. The pH swings will still be measureable but the size of the swing dawn to dusk will be dramatically reduced. With high KH the pH at dawn should not drop below 7.5, with high GH the pH at dusk should not exceed 9.5, since at values above 9.5 if the GH is above 150 ppm calcium carbonate will precipitate to drop the pH and avoid extremely high pH values.

      With increase in KH alone, the extremely low pH values at dawn will be avoided, but the extremely high pH at dusk will continue. With increase in GH alone, the extremely high pH values at dusk will be limited, but the liklihood of very low pH at dawn will continue.

      Low pH at dawn can kill fish at values below 6, small koi are much more sensitive than larger koi to acidic pH values, and die sooner. High pH at dusk is a special problem if the ammonia levels are high, since high pH makes the ammonia more toxic. At very low ammonia levels, the high pH won't kill the fish. If you see the fish piping at the surface late afternoon and evening during algae blooms, the reason is typically high pH combined with significant ammonia levels compromising the gill function to make oxygen takeup more difficult for the fish.

      Also, with a high algae bloom, dissolved oxygen at night can become problematical unless there is sufficient aeration to maintain dissolved oxygen content while the algae robs the water of dissolved oxygen all night.
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...om-and-high-Ph

    4. #4
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      Thank you Cindy,
      I have never used calcium chloride flake and I'm assuming it would have to be ordered on line and not bought in a store. Is calcium chloride flake the one that needs to be added with epsom salt? How much do I need to raise GH?
      Ive also never used any kind of chemical algae remover before and I'm not sure I want to, is that the only way to get rid of algae ( I also have a UV light). I know blooms come and go on there own and I'm hoping mine goes on its own also. The water is green but I can still see the fish.
      I guess at first light of morning I'll know how worried I should be (or not) when I do another PH reading.
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

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    5. #5
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      Calcium chloride is in some areas marketed as ice melt, in other areas the ice melt could be a blend of calcium, potassium, and sodium chloride, just check the label. It can also be gotten in swim pool supply locations as hardness increaser. In the directions on hardness increaser, it should tell you how much to add to increase the hardness X number of points.

      You mention the GH is 30, is that measured by test strip? There are test kits for GH that are like the ones for KH and measure in degrees. Probably more accurate.
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    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Calcium chloride is in some areas marketed as ice melt, in other areas the ice melt could be a blend of calcium, potassium, and sodium chloride, just check the label. It can also be gotten in swim pool supply locations as hardness increaser. In the directions on hardness increaser, it should tell you how much to add to increase the hardness X number of points.

      You mention the GH is 30, is that measured by test strip? There are test kits for GH that are like the ones for KH and measure in degrees. Probably more accurate.
      I though I had read that somewhere about using pool hardness increaser (hard to find ice melt in NC this time of year). Can it all be put in at once or should I raise it slow over a few days, you didnt mention epsom salt to go with it so I assume I remembered it wrong as to what I thought I read once.

      Yes, The GH was measured with a test strip, to me it looks like its lower than 30ppm on the strip but I just said 30 (it is low). Everything coming out of my tap is low KH, GH and PH. If I find that I have a PH swing after morning test I will pick up a GH drop kit to get accurate reading before adding calcium chloride.

      Thank you for your help
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
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    7. #7
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      Epsom salts increases the GH also, and may be needed for metabolism of the fish, but the one needed for pH control is calcium. Roddy used about 1/2 and 1/2 calcium chloride and epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) as his water was completely devoid of both. Yours may be the same.
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    8. #8
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      For years I used microbe-lift barley straw extract in my pond It only takes a few onces once a month. I cant even remember the last time I had an algea bloom. I dont know if it was because I used the barley extract, have a good UV light or because I had a very mature pond. I stopped using the barley this past winter (not sure why) and now an algae bloom. The bloom could be from having all new filter media and the pond is still in adjustment. I think I might start back up the barley again, once the pond clears up the barley should keep it clear. If I get another algae bloom after using it then I know its not working.

      A penny for your thoughts on barley extract!
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
      https://youtu.be/PR3Q2MInsQg

    9. #9
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      I did a PH test this morning and so happy...NO PH swing. I said it was 8.6-8.8 last night but it was closer to 8.6, this morning it was 8.4. My fish and I can be happy with that and I'll keep a close eye on it until bloom is gone. Its not a bad bloom, I can still see all the fish its nothing like the pea soup I have seen in some ponds.

      Richard,
      I have read a lot about GH in ponds including Ricks artical. I'm picking up a drop GH test today to get better numbers. Is it worth trying to change the GH in pond if its so low coming out of tap? Once I try to change it I will ALWAYS have to be adding stuff to keep it at any level other than whats from my tap.
      Is there a point when GH can be to LOW? Does it need to be kept at a certain ppm to help maintain pond or fish in any way?
      ** I did make some pond pucks at one time out of plaster of paris and while they didnt do much for KH they did raise my GH a little.

      Thanks Deb
      Happiness is adopting a mutt and my pond is FULL of Happiness....
      Deb

      My pond
      https://youtu.be/PR3Q2MInsQg

    10. #10
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      There are only two times I am concerned about GH. The first is when you are trying to establish a new filter. Roddy Conrad had tested many different situations to determine how fast a new filter would cycle, and he found that using baking soda to bring the KH to the 150 to 200 ppm range and a 50/50 mix of calcium chloride and Epsom salts to bring the GH to 100 to 150 ppm range would cause filters to cycle more quickly than any other method he had tested.

      The other time I am concerned with GH is a situation exactly like yours. Using baking soda to bring the KH to the 150 to 200 ppm range will prevent the pH from dropping below 8.3, but it cannot prevent pH from going above 8.3 unless there is enough calcium in the water. As Rich said, Epsom salts will raise GH, but that is because it is adding magnesium. To prevent the pH swing, you need calcium. Since GH is determined by the sum of all of the divalent ions, you could have a high GH, but still not have enough calcium - the GH could be entirely due to magnesium, iron, and other divalent ions that are not calcium. Since your pH is going high despite a KH of about 180 ppm, I think you do not have enough calcium regardless of your GH. Before you add any calcium chloride, though, please measure the pH at dawn and again in the late afternoon. If the two readings are within 0.3 units of each other, I would not be too concerned, but if the afternoon reading is more than 0.3 units higher than the morning reading and higher than 8.6, I would add enough calcium chloride to raise the GH by about 55 ppm (~ 3 drops).

      If the pH is above 8.3, then the calcium chloride should be added in small increments over two or three days. If the pH is 8.3, then the calcium chloride can be added all at once.

      There are two things to remember about calcium chloride. The first is that when it is added to water, it will give off a lot of heat as it dissolves. Therefore, you should not add the flakes directly to the pond. Dissolve them in a bucket first, and then pour the water into the pond. The second is that you cannot add baking soda and calcium chloride at the same time. You need to add one and then wait long enough for your pumps to turn over the volume of the pond three times before you add the other. It does not matter which one you add first, but if you do not let one of them equilibrate before you add the other, the calcium chloride and sodium hydroxide will combine to form calcium carbonate, which will precipitate out of the water.

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