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    Thread: Koi food

    1. #61
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      Have to agree with all the koi people here, catfish food is just that a diet made for catfish... And sure the koi will be just FINE living of of their diet but that's it just fine. And your water suffers with the waste being produced. Koi are already a big waste producing fish. Feeding them a cheaper food, ingredient wise, will only put more work on your shoulders keeping filters clean and water changed. And let's be honest less work is better.

      But to each their own. It all about where you are at I the hobby.

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    2. #62
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      The comment about high fiber got my attention. We do not see much discussion about fiber in a koi diet. Some fiber is good, just as for other animal diets. High fiber contributes to increased fines in the water. It may seem that high fiber is a negative. However, fiber in most pellet foods is replacing carbohydrate. Some foods will use such ingredients as rice hulls and bran. While these do have some nutritional content, we often think of them as 'cheap filler'. Some foods do use high fiber ingredients just to lower costs. Some, however, have a more thoughtful purpose, using a high fiber ingredient to reduce carbs.

      Some of the inexpensive fish foods not specifically designed for koi have a moderate protein level and high carbohydrate level. These can lead to chubby koi, fat abdomens as if filled with eggs, and an overall stubby sort of appearance compared to the sleek spindle shape desired for koi. The koi can be healthy in the sense that they do not have parasites, sores or visible maladies; but, like an overweight person who suffers from malnutrition or diabetes, there can be adverse impacts on the organs leading to premature deaths. This may not be very material to the fishkeeper, since most koi die from one cause or another long before the adverse impacts of fatty liver, etc. are noticed. Far more koi should live to be 15 or 20 or 30 years old than do. The high fiber replacement of carbohydrate can actually be beneficial. ....I think most folks feed more than the koi need anyway.
      Last edited by MikeM; 08-15-2014 at 09:07 AM.

    3. #63
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      After three warnings, another comment was posted and we have cleaned up the thread to remove personal attacks and negative comments that have unfortunately distracted from the conversation. Please keep this on track with food, impact on water, etc and away from personal comments about each other.



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    4. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
      ....I think most folks feed more than the koi need anyway.
      Is there a rule of thumb you follow with percentages or consumption time?



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    5. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeM View Post
      The comment about high fiber got my attention. We do not see much discussion about fiber in a koi diet. Some fiber is good, just as for other animal diets. High fiber contributes to increased fines in the water. It may seem that high fiber is a negative. However, fiber in most pellet foods is replacing carbohydrate. Some foods will use such ingredients as rice hulls and bran. While these do have some nutritional content, we often think of them as 'cheap filler'. Some foods do use high fiber ingredients just to lower costs. Some, however, have a more thoughtful purpose, using a high fiber ingredient to reduce carbs.

      Some of the inexpensive fish foods not specifically designed for koi have a moderate protein level and high carbohydrate level. These can lead to chubby koi, fat abdomens as if filled with eggs, and an overall stubby sort of appearance compared to the sleek spindle shape desired for koi. The koi can be healthy in the sense that they do not have parasites, sores or visible maladies; but, like an overweight person who suffers from malnutrition or diabetes, there can be adverse impacts on the organs leading to premature deaths. This may not be very material to the fishkeeper, since most koi die from one cause or another long before the adverse impacts of fatty liver, etc. are noticed. Far more koi should live to be 15 or 20 or 30 years old than do. The high fiber replacement of carbohydrate can actually be beneficial. ....I think most folks feed more than the koi need anyway.
      Very well explained, thanks MikeM

    6. #66
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      Okay...I have 10 kois...(2) 21" (3) 19" (5) avg16" .....I'm feeding max 180-200 grams of food per day....is that enough 3% body weight? Please advice..

    7. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      Is there a rule of thumb you follow with percentages or consumption time?
      No.

      Feeding according to a weight percentage was developed in commercial aquaculture as the overall most economically efficient way to produce the most poundage for the buck. It has nothing to do with health, body form and, surprisingly, is not about maximizing growth per se. Since employee time is a big expense in aquaculture, if something can be accomplished with employees paid an agricultural minimum wage (i.e., no thinking required), sacrificing a little growth can still translate to profits on the bottom line. The use of weight percentages was picked up in koi production by the mass breeding facilities and influences the feeding practices of breeders trying to be more 'scientific' in their production. It is a great approach if you are raising up a few hundred thousand fish with no time for personal observation. For hobbyists, time spent observing their koi should be a pleasure, not an expense to be avoided.

      The idea of only feeding what is consumed in a particular period of time was developed back in the 1920s (perhaps even in the 19th century??) when the aquarium hobby started to spread. It was intended to stop newbies from overfeeding the fish kept in unfiltered water. It served that purpose well and has been with us ever since. It makes no sense for any other purpose. In Nature fish feed opportunistically on a continual basis. Some feed more heavily in the morning and as evening approaches. Some have no preference. Whatever the time of day preferences, in Nature fish do not eat for a set period of time. With koi, the rate at which food is consumed reflects the level of hunger. Well-fed koi may take an hour or longer to consume what near-starving koi will consume in 10 minutes.

      My approach is to sit pondside and toss in a handfull of pellets at a time. I observe my koi as I feed them. A point will come when they are no longer very interested. That point will vary among the koi. Some eat eagerly at first and then slow down, some do not eat much until most of the koi are out of the way. Young koi are always ravenous. Mature koi are more leisurely. A tosai may eat more in 5 minutes than a 85cm 9-year old, but the mature koi will end up eating more if you let her have time; and the tosai will stop much sooner. So, the behavior of the koi determines how much I feed. Most of the time, it takes about 45 minutes to feed this way. Some days longer, some days shorter. If I do not have time to be pondside, like on workday mornings, I feed a quantity of food similar to the quantity they have been eating when last sitting pondside to feed them. So, this morning, a workday, they got an amount similar to what they consumed Sunday morning when I did sit pondside with them. ...In other words, I let the koi tell me when they have had enough.

      This is the most challenging time of year for me. This week, for example, local temperatures are supposed to rise to 97F. I expect the water will be warming even more, affecting the efficiency of digestion. It may well get to be too hot to spend much time pondside late afternoon even in the shade. So, I may end up cutting back a little. I would rather feed a little less than adversely affect the water.

    8. #68
      Pond James_Pond's Avatar
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      and that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how to properly feed koi.

      Well written Mike, it's more about observing and learning than it is about a mathematical formula.

      steve

    9. #69
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      Amen!!!
      Mike

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    10. #70
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      Mike, thanks for bringing up the Saki Hikari. I got behind on this thread. I think the reason so many of these people are choosing the hi silk though is an optimum cost benefit. The Saki Hikari as near as I can tell in my limited google and amazon searching costs double what hi silk does, which is I think why I never tried it. I guess for a pond with a few show fish in it, it might be practical, but I wouldn't want to spend what it would cost to feed it to the whole pond. The Kenzen to my memory is a little more than the hi silk as well, but well below the Saki Hikari. I have heard a lot of good things about Kenzen. I'm not sure if it is because they have an active political sales fleet that over represents them in forums, or because the food is genuinely really good. I never seem to be able to find it in a large pellet, or I would have tried it by now.

      I haven't seen much talk about Kodama koi food. I have fed it before, and it is cost comparable with the Kenzen. I know of others who feed it and like it. I know when I have used the color food, I had a lot more confidence it was doing something than with this blackwater food. I know when I showed Taro the Blackwater food he kind of laughed, because of its color. I had wondered the same. Spirulina should give the color food a color, and the Blackwater food looks exactly the same color as the hi silk.

      I think I had heard about fatty liver disease, but not necessarily linked with hi silk food. I'd be interested to see an actual reference on that. I do think you have to consider when your key objective is growth and bulk with youthful skin and color, the long term health of the fish is not really the top priority. I mean raising show koi is like raising body builders. At some point they suffer from rhoid rage and start beating up porn stars, and in the end you probably don't want those golden years koi in your show pond. So if fatty liver disease hits them at like 10 years, I don't know how concerned I would be about it. I know, I'm a heartless engineer, but...

      Re: How to feed koi
      I agree with what was said. When I'm not at work, I feed them this way to see that everyone is eating, and to inspect them all for possible health problems. Honestly, I have found the fish will TELL YOU when its too cold for them to eat. On the verge if they eat, sometimes they start flashing because their tummies don't feel good, and you know it isn't good to give them food. Or if it is straight up too cold they just won't eat. They will TELL YOU if ammonia or nitrites are getting up there if you pay attention to their behavior condition and eating load too. I mean you would like to have caught any problems before they start showing signs, and it's not really a replacement for testing, but carefully observing the fish is usually a very good indicator of water quality. That being said, I am not retired, and it is nice to have a guideline of how much the fish could be eating with an auto feeder while I am not present to feed them in the 45 minute fashion.

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    11. #71
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      I think most of the foods mentioned, Saki Hikari, Kenzen, Hi Silk, Kodama, can be in the same ball park if you do a bit of shopping around, buying in larger quantities (if you can use it within a reasonable amount of time), and get free shipping. I vacuum pack my food at times if I can't use it all in one season. I did a quick search and found the following:

      Saki Hikari - Multi Season, 33 lbs - 9.03/lb
      Hi Silk 21 (large pellets), 44 lbs - 8.09/lb
      Kenzen, 50 lbs - 7.50/lb
      Kodama Wheat Germ, 22 lbs - 8.18/lb
      Kodama Color Up, 22 lbs - 10.23/lb

      One year, I was able to get Saki Hikari Multi-Season for about $7.50/lb. We used Hi Silk one year in conjunction with Saki Hikari and found that while the fish looked good, it produced more waste than we wanted so we stopped using it.
      Last edited by AvgJoe; 08-20-2014 at 05:57 PM.

    12. #72
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      I just did some further pricing research and here's what I found:

      Hi Silk 44lb = $275 or $6.25/lb
      Saki Hikari Multi Season 33lb = $310 or $9.39/lb
      Saki Hikari Growth 33lb $245 or $7.42/lb
      FD HiGrowth 33lb $215 or $6.51/lb
      Mizuho HiGrowth sinking 33 lb/$225 or $6.82/lb
      Kodama Color Food 22lbs/$213.75 or $9.72/lb
      Kodama Wheat Germ 22lb/$171 or $7.77/lb
      Kenzen price used as above - no reference

      So, as you can see, some are more, some are less than Kenzen. Whether the quality of all is equal, well, we all have our favorites. The most important thing, I believe, is in the amount of waste produced by the fish which somewhat shows how much of the food is assimilated by the fish. So, your price/lb may vary.
      Mike

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    13. #73
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      Kenzen price used as above - no reference
      I find this some what comical, but not surprising. An effort was made to find the pricing on 4 of the 5 foods from AvgJoe's thread and even some additional foods but not Kenzen, "- no reference" For those looking to verify the price there are at least three vendors that help support KP that carry the food and could have been used as a reference.

      They are:
      http://www.highdesertkoi.com
      http://koipondfood.com
      http://www.bwkoi.com/Kenzen-Koi-Food...od-sc-197.html


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    14. #74
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      When researching the price of Kenzen one thing you may notice is that no matter if you buy 10#'s or 50#'s you'll pay the same price per pound . So, say you only have a small pond with only a few fish to feed and you don't need a 33# bag of food sitting around oxidizing. Let's compare the prices of the above foods at the 10# level or least as close as we can get.

      Hi Silk,11# bag……………………………..$9.09
      S. Hikari MS, 4.4#'s x 2………………$14.76
      S. Hikari G, 4.4#'s x 2………………..$12.48
      Mizuho HG, 4.4#'s x 2……………….…$10.21
      FD Growth, 6#'s x 2………………………$8.08
      Kodama WG 11#……………………………$8.63
      Kodama C 11#…………………………….$11.77

      So Kenzen may not be as competitive price wise in larger quantities but it's very competitive at the 10# level. Considering fishmeal is about $.80 a pound and wheat is about $.15 a pound on the production level you might want to consider what's in the bag rather then it's size.


      Price Sources:
      Pondleader
      Genki Koi
      Kodama Koi


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    15. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by Norm Walsh View Post
      When researching the price of Kenzen one thing you may notice is that no matter if you buy 10#'s or 50#'s you'll pay the same price per pound . So, say you only have a small pond with only a few fish to feed and you don't need a 33# bag of food sitting around oxidizing. Let's compare the prices of the above foods at the 10# level or least as close as we can get.

      Hi Silk,11# bag……………………………..$9.09
      S. Hikari MS, 4.4#'s x 2………………$14.76
      S. Hikari G, 4.4#'s x 2………………..$12.48
      Mizuho HG, 4.4#'s x 2……………….…$10.21
      FD Growth, 6#'s x 2………………………$8.08
      Kodama WG 11#……………………………$8.63
      Kodama C 11#…………………………….$11.77

      So Kenzen may not be as competitive price wise in larger quantities but it's very competitive at the 10# level. Considering fishmeal is about $.80 a pound and wheat is about $.15 a pound on the production level you might want to consider what's in the bag rather then it's size.


      Price Sources:
      Pondleader
      Genki Koi
      Kodama Koi
      Price doesn't matter when your koi won't eat the food. I tried Kenzen koi food and I have spoken to at least 2 other people that used Kenzen food as well and although they never knew what was going on, I had figured out the issue instantly. The fact is that koi don't like Kenzen koi food. Sure you can starve your koi and they'll eat anything. When you're trying to build massive bulk before a show or whatnot and the koi get all the food they can eat, most become picky eaters. For this reason alone, I won't use Kenzen food.

    16. #76
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dravin View Post
      Price doesn't matter when your koi won't eat the food. I tried Kenzen koi food and I have spoken to at least 2 other people that used Kenzen food as well and although they never knew what was going on, I had figured out the issue instantly. The fact is that koi don't like Kenzen koi food. Sure you can starve your koi and they'll eat anything. When you're trying to build massive bulk before a show or whatnot and the koi get all the food they can eat, most become picky eaters. For this reason alone, I won't use Kenzen food.
      Two things:

      1. It has been my experience that animals (including fish) often need a period of time to adjust to a significant dietary change.

      2. Taste preferences are a very poor way to judge optimal nutrition with respect to both animals as well as humans. If preferences were a reliable to guide, our family dog would do just fine on her preferred diet of bacon and cheeseburgers, and human children would thrive on candy, soda-pop, and potato chips.

    17. #77
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Two things:

      1. It has been my experience that animals (including fish) often need a period of time to adjust to a significant dietary change.

      2. Taste preferences are a very poor way to judge optimal nutrition with respect to both animals as well as humans. If preferences were a reliable to guide, our family dog would do just fine on her preferred diet of bacon and cheeseburgers, and human children would thrive on candy, soda-pop, and potato chips.


      Your second point is about 10% correct at the most. The fact is that if koi won't eat the food, then they can't possibly thrive. They may grow and live, but they won't thrive. I don't care how great you make V8 vegetable drink nutritionally for a human, the fact is that unless you're starving 80% of the population will not drink that crap. Sure it's nutritious, and drinking 5 cans a day would be great for anyone. But finding that 1 person in 1000 that is willing to drink 5 cans because they actually like it is impractical.

      If you focus so much on what is good for the koi that you neglect to factor in what the koi actually want to eat, then you've lost the battle. There needs to be a happy medium, and I'm not trying to bash any particular food here because I really wanted Kenzen to work because I know how great it would be for the koi if they actually wanted to gorge on it and eat it. But the fact is that my koi hated it. And not just hated it a little, but absolutely hated it to the point they wouldn't eat it for anything other than survival.

    18. #78
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      I would argue against koi taste as an indicator of food quality as well. The end results of growth, color, and water quality are far larger factors than if your koi snub the food.



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    19. #79
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      I would argue against koi taste as an indicator of food quality as well. The end results of growth, color, and water quality are far larger factors than if your koi snub the food.
      I would like to see your koi, and then I would like you to compare them to someone that knows how to raise koi like Ryuki, or Mr. Tullis, or Mr. Lentis, or myself for that matter. I chime in to give just a glymps of what I have learned over the years and why my koi are so beautiful. If you don't believe it has anything to do with the way I raise koi, then you don't have to listen to my advice. But I wouldn't tell you anything that I don't believe 100%.

      There needs to be a happy medium with everything. Just like nutrition is important to raising quality koi, so is the fact that koi need to actually like the food to consume the amount of nutrition you need to make them beautiful.

    20. #80
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dravin View Post
      Your second point is about 10% correct at the most........
      I am curious how you arrive at this data point of "about 10% at the most?" Do you have an objective reference for this?

      Quote Originally Posted by Dravin View Post
      .....I don't care how great you make V8 vegetable drink nutritionally for a human, the fact is that unless you're starving 80% of the population will not drink that crap.
      The percentage cited here seems more than a little slanted by your own personal tastes.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dravin View Post
      ......I really wanted Kenzen to work because I know how great it would be for the koi if they actually wanted to gorge on it and eat it. But the fact is that my koi hated it. And not just hated it a little, but absolutely hated it to the point they wouldn't eat it for anything other than survival.
      Your observation seems unusual -- and it is not consistent with the bulk of users of that food (myself included). To be frank, I have to wonder if other factors were at play. I simply do not have an explanation that accounts for your experience.

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