• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Another Buttterfly Koi fin problem

    1. #1
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7

      Post Another Buttterfly Koi fin problem

      I have 2 Butterfly Koi with red flushing at the ends of dorsal and tail fins with slow deterioration. I have researched and tried different treatments without success. Photos below. I have noticed the problem for many months (8-12) and have been actively treating for about 4 months. I can't figure it out. Advise greatly needed.

      I have tried amoxicillin, "Fish Sulfa Forte", formalin/malachite green, Jungles Fungus Clear - 8 days (less flushing).

      Water Tests -Tank 1: ph 7.8 salted 1.5 lb/100gal 52 gal, fish body 9in (yes I know)
      alk 120-180
      hardness 150-300
      nitrite 0
      nitrate 20
      Tank 2: ph 7.8 salted 1lb/100gal 28 gal tank fish 4in "
      alk 120-180
      hardness 150-300
      nitrite 0
      nitrate 20

      Name:  Magna b.jpg
Views: 4174
Size:  76.5 KB

      This first photo is from early July. The red flushing could become much greater up to the back half of the body (fins) when the fish was "upset". The last 3 photos are after 8 days of Fungus Clear. The flushing is now diminished but the fin edge is ragged, deteriorating more quickly and the edge blood-areas are increasing. Makes me sick.
      Name:  Magna 1.jpg
Views: 1407
Size:  72.6 KB
      Name:  Magna 2.jpg
Views: 1648
Size:  69.4 KB
      Name:  Magna 3.jpg
Views: 1290
Size:  142.1 KB

      Thanks for your help, I will be eternally grateful,
      Grace Jones

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Senior Member~~Moderator
      is still doing this pond thing.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,289
      Welcome, Grace! Thanks for the water parameters and information you provided (most people miss that request. )

      Way too much fish for the tank size - I think you already know that. One very important measurement I'm not seeing in your water parameters is ammonia. Would you please provide that?

      Despite what look like good water parameters (besides the missing ammonia reading), the primary cause of fin rot in koi is water quality issues.

      • How often are you doing water changes and what percentage?
      • What is your filtration method?
      • Do you have one koi per tank or are there other fish in there? (FYI, koi are not solitary fish - they can become very depressed when alone).




      I would stop doing in-water treatments. These fins are actually NOT that bad and constant medications will affect water quality and filter function. Sedating the koi and treating the fins with iodine are probably going to be all that is needed but until the root cause is addressed, the situation can't be rectified. If you don't mind providing answers to the questions above, we can go from there.

      Curious what your long term plans for these koi....? (They cannot stay in the tanks. Suggested gallon minimum for ONE koi is 1000 gallons)
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    3. #3
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2012
      Location
      Ronkonkoma, New York
      Posts
      2,600
      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      One more thing....what is the percentage of salt in your tanks right now? Do not add any more salt. Salt is not removed via water changes in an equal measure. If you remove 25% of the water, you are NOT removing 25% of the salt. Do you have a salt tester or kit?
      Can you please explain this? Salt is ionic and completely soluble in water, and therefore if the mixture is not supersaturated then a 25% water change would take out exactly 25% of the salt because it forms a homogenous solution.

    4. #4
      Sweetwater is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2011
      Location
      .
      Posts
      3,323
      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Someone else will have to give you the chemical reasons why....but this has been my experience across the board. I think I remember Rick/Rich/Karl explaining why at some point...I'll look for the thread.

      When I brought my koi inside in January b/c it was too cold, I had to salt my QT tanks to .15% for 2.5 months while my new filters came online. Needless to say, I also had to do a LOT of water changes. Initially, I was doing 50% water changes daily. Each and every time that I did a 50% water change, my salt did NOT drop by 50%.

      And yes...I was using a digital tester.
      You may be thinking of the "overflow" method where water is added to the tank and allowed to drain out through the overflow. However if you drain a given amount of water out of the tank first and then refill it you will lower the salt content by the percentage of water removed. Norm Meck covered this in the Water Quality course work for the CKK course. A 50% change out will remove 50% of the salt.

      (Page 21 of the Water Quality course work)

    5. #5
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Senior Member~~Moderator
      is still doing this pond thing.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,289
      I have deleted my original statement so it doesn't derail the thread. Apparently my QT is weird.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    6. #6
      KoiValley's Avatar
      KoiValley is offline WWKC Lifetime Diamond Member #3
      is terrific!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Koi Valley, Minnesota
      Posts
      5,425
      Regardless of what you think might be happening, keep this in mind:

      Over the course of the last several years I have had the pleasure of personally handling and bagging what is probably the finest specimen of a Showa Butterfly. She was and is magnificent. Yes her tail and to a small degree, her other fins showed signed of veining. However, the judges of the shows all dismissed this as a common thing among large butterflies. It also appeared as my own butterflies grew and aged in the pond. So, I would take that into consideration before treating something which is, in this case, normal. Please let this fish grow and fill out. Chances are it is only what a butterfly does. Veining as opposed to deteriorating fins is completely different but yet has some similarities. Incidentally she took best in class at shows where there were some serious contenders.

      Karl
      Karl Schoeler, founder: EIHIOICGI

      Certified: AKCA Better Health Practices December 2008


    7. #7
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      Thank you all very much,

      I don't have an ammonia test kit yet but hoped water changes and boimedia are effective. Water changes 25-75% every 4 to 7 days, or as recommended for the medications For this fish the filter is like a box type with a large bag of biomedia added to the tank. For 2 weeks I ran charcoal. No effect. I use charcoal when not medicating. Salt was replaced equivalent to the water change.

      The 2 Koi were in the same tank (yah, way overstocked). I separated them when I started actively treating them. So they are alone. This fish has grown half an inch.

      Everything is waiting for installation of an ~ 8000 gallon above ground pool (major delays). All of the other fish will go there and these 2 fish will go in the existing 540 gallon pond. My intermediate plan is to shift them into larger tanks; this fish to 120 gallons (current fish to the overstocked pond ) and the smaller one into the 52 gallon tank. I guess they should have tiny tank mates.

      I have not previously used iodine.

      Thank you for the expert advise,
      Grace

    8. #8
      koiman1950's Avatar
      koiman1950 is offline Supporting Member
      is semi retired
       
      Feeling:
      Tired
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      San Jose, Ca
      Posts
      19,244
      You definitely need to get an ammonia test kit. I do agree with Karl as well about the fin condition, but if kinda looks like the edges of the fins are actively being "chewed up", then a possibility of ammonia burn could be possible, especially in lite of the fact that you don't know what your ammonia levels are currently.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    9. #9
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      I will get an ammonia test kit immediately. It would not be surprising if the treatments disturbed the biological system, though I will be disappointed in the substantial bio-media substrate.

      Thanks again,
      GraceName:  Biomedia.jpg
Views: 1084
Size:  107.3 KB

    10. #10
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      Thanks for your help,

      I have done tests for ammonia;

      TANK 1 First Testing Second Testing
      (Prior to H20 Change) (5 days after 75% water change)
      ammonia 0 0
      nitrite 0 0
      nitrate 20 35
      ph 7.8 7.8
      alk 120-180 120-180
      hardness 200-300 200-300
      salted 2 lb/100gal

      TANK 2 First Testing Second Testing
      (Prior to H20 Change) (5 days after 75% water change)
      ammonia 0 0
      nitrite 0 0
      nitrate 20 30
      pH 7.8 7.8
      alk 120-180 120-180
      hardness 200-300 200-300
      salted 1 lb/100gal

      I am relieved that the tank ammonia levels are 0. (The pond however was not, .008, probably careless overfeeding, I measure that food now).

      This fish has had consistent slow progression in the deterioration. (The other fish not noticeably.)

      I am now prepared with clove oil and gentian violet. I am not sure which iodine to use if recommended.
      When these fish are moved, the tanks won't be too small. Is one tank mate enough. I haven't brought in a new fish in 3 years, but I will if necessary.

      Happily the new pond is progressing now that a new site doesn't require moving (another) 9 cubic yards of hillside.

      Thanks again,
      Grace

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      I realize that I don't need to bring in new small fish (YAY!) If I pay attention to to water quality I can use the 3 smallest fish.

      I am repeating the test results since the last post is not clear

      TANK 1
      First Testing (Prior to H20 Change):
      Am 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, pH 7.8, alk 120-180, hardness 200-300

      Second Testing (5 days after 75% water change)
      Am 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 30, pH 7.8, alk 120-180, hardness 200-300
      salted 1 lb/100gal

      TANK 2
      First Testing (Prior to H20 Change):
      Am 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20, pH 7.8, alk 120-180, hardness 200-300

      Second Testing (5 days after 75% water change)
      Am 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 35, pH 7.8, alk 120-180, hardness 200-300
      salted 2 lb/100gal

      I await your recommendations,
      Thank You,
      Grace

    12. #12
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      Quote Originally Posted by Grace Jones View Post
      Thanks for your help,


      I am relieved that the tank ammonia levels are 0. (The pond however was not, .008, probably careless overfeeding, I measure that food now).

      Thanks again,
      Grace
      I am confused about this level. How did you measure it? The reason I ask is the API test kits go yellow at 0 and very slight green at 0.25 as the next color. I have a meter that reads digital and I will get results close to 0.08 shortly after feeding but some minimal level of ammonia is constantly in the pond to provide the food for the bacteria, and the fish don't stop breathing except at the intake to the filter. At a value of 0.008, I would definitely not be concerned.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    13. #13
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      Hi Richard,

      My ammonia test kit is Seachem. The 2 tanks in question show no ammonia. I'm not surprised by that because I use extra biomedia and I clean the filters (remove sludge) when I do water changes.

      The pond was being overfed, which is embarrassing and there were a lot of particulates. The test value that I gave (.008) is an estimate based on the readings at 15 and 30 min, which told me that I needed to make adjustments (feeding and filtration). I know I have to stay on top of the pond water quality, its way overstocked, and the new pond is about a month away.

      If the fin problem is not water quality then it must be an organism or stress. I had wondered about nutrition so I put the 2 fish on Hikari gold. This fish may have gotten bigger and the other became a deeper metallic. The fin deterioration wasn't stopped.

      If the issue is an organism I would rather not move them to bigger tanks requiring more medication. Gentian violet is topical...? If it's stress then I need to do the moves plus tank mates.

      I will greatly appreciate your advice.
      Grace

    14. #14
      Longfin Lover's Avatar
      Longfin Lover is offline Senior Member
      is Northern Ponder
       
      Feeling:
      Happy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2010
      Location
      Near Guelph, Ontario, Canada
      Posts
      749

      Beautiful Butterfly

      Quote Originally Posted by KoiValley View Post
      Regardless of what you think might be happening, keep this in mind:

      Over the course of the last several years I have had the pleasure of personally handling and bagging what is probably the finest specimen of a Showa Butterfly. She was and is magnificent. Yes her tail and to a small degree, her other fins showed signed of veining. However, the judges of the shows all dismissed this as a common thing among large butterflies. It also appeared as my own butterflies grew and aged in the pond. So, I would take that into consideration before treating something which is, in this case, normal. Please let this fish grow and fill out. Chances are it is only what a butterfly does. Veining as opposed to deteriorating fins is completely different but yet has some similarities. Incidentally she took best in class at shows where there were some serious contenders.

      Karl
      I am sure a lot of us Butterfly lovers would like to see any pictures of "the finest specimen of a Showa Butterfly". I know I certainly would, Karl.

      As for your butterfly in the above posts, Grace...I think that it is beautiful also. Please share pictures of your pond progression too.
      Marg
      Last edited by Longfin Lover; 08-21-2014 at 09:37 AM. Reason: incorrect spelling

      proudly Canadian

    15. #15
      Lunatoons's Avatar
      Lunatoons is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      Dallas, TX
      Posts
      1,335
      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      Welcome, Grace! Thanks for the water parameters and information you provided (most people miss that request. )

      Curious what your long term plans for these koi....? (They cannot stay in the tanks. Suggested gallon minimum for ONE koi is 1000 gallons)
      one koi per 1000 Gallons?!? I've not seen that anywhere that I've read. The usual parameters I hear are 250-500 gallons per koi. Now, you could do this, but I certainly don't think that is the "minimum". Just my opinion and from what I've understood from knowledgeable sources.
      Vicki


      "Some of my best friends have scales!"

      Member Dallas Koi Kichi Club (www.dallaskoikichi.org)
      Member North Texas Water Garden Society (www.ntwgs.org)

      Always learning!
      6000 gallon liner pond
      Skimmer to 1/4 hp 2 speed pump to Bead filter to 4 jets,
      2-4" BD to SC to Nexus 300 to 1/4 hp Performance Pro Artesian pump to 2 S/G filters to waterfall

      Click for Dallas, Texas Forecast



    16. #16
      Lunatoons's Avatar
      Lunatoons is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      Dallas, TX
      Posts
      1,335
      Grace,
      I have several long fin koi, and some are over 22" long with beautiful flowing fins, much like yours. A couple of them, however, have been very sensitive to their environment, and they seem to have slight veining of the fins almost all of the time...After watching, now for several years, I've concluded that this must be normal for this variety. I hope this is true of yours as well...she's very pretty...
      Vicki


      "Some of my best friends have scales!"

      Member Dallas Koi Kichi Club (www.dallaskoikichi.org)
      Member North Texas Water Garden Society (www.ntwgs.org)

      Always learning!
      6000 gallon liner pond
      Skimmer to 1/4 hp 2 speed pump to Bead filter to 4 jets,
      2-4" BD to SC to Nexus 300 to 1/4 hp Performance Pro Artesian pump to 2 S/G filters to waterfall

      Click for Dallas, Texas Forecast



    17. #17
      Grace Jones is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2014
      Location
      Riverside CA
      Posts
      7
      Thanks Marg and Vicki,

      So you see the band of flushing (red)? On this fish about an inch wide. I expect to see veins. Actually my third butterfly has the flushing slightly sometimes. What scares me are the spots where the veins pop out on the deteriorating areas. This photo shows a comparison of the fins - left side early July; right side - current (mid Aug.). The arrows show where the blood red spots are.
      Name:  Tail comp.jpg
Views: 993
Size:  101.2 KB

      (I am not impressed with Melafix.) So is the problem possibly salt, loneliness or tank size? I can correct these. Do you feed special diets? No medicines have worked.

      Thanks again, Grace

    18. #18
      RickF's Avatar
      RickF is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2012
      Location
      Cary, NC
      Posts
      2,903
      I doubt salt is the problem, but there is no need for salt. As others have said, ammonia burn could be the culprit, so please post the ammonia results as soon as you get the test kit. Tank size could be the problem as the fish will be constantly bumping the fins against the walls of the tank.

    19. #19
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      I have never used the Seachem Ammonia Test. Looks interesting. I think I may get one for comparison. I like multiple test procedures tested against each other as a validation of the test. Age, and day to day production variability make additional tests justifiable.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •