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    Thread: My continued fight of costia

    1. #1
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      My continued fight of costia

      The costia attacked my fish without any forewarning symptoms and before I knew what was happening I had quite a few fish in my pond in serious distress.

      I apparently missed the first symptom and brushed it off as a spawning injury. It was a fish that I purchased in January 2013 and kept in quarantine until late November 2013 before putting her in my 17,000 gallon flow through pond. She appeared to do well until this spring after a spawning incident in my pond. She lost eggs and then started to hang out near the air stone. Then she seriously started to loose weight and even muscle. I just thought she had a serious injury from the spawn and would not recover. At this point no other fish of the many in this pond were showing any symptoms. No flashing, not jumping, just their usually swimming and eating.

      Then suddenly about 6 more started to hang out near the air and I saw the typical patches and red streaks in the skin and fins and immediately recognized it as costia, since I have had it 3 times in the last 20 years. The first time was in imported koi after 6 weeks of quarantine. The second time was in 2011 in this same pond.

      I saw the symptoms in the 6 additional koi too late in the evening before I had to go to work early the next AM so I could not treat until the next afternoon. All I had on hand for a 17,000 gallon pond was potassium permaganete. I treated with a fairly heavy dose and left it in 3 1/ to 4 hours before the koi all became extremely stressed so I had to neutralize it. This seemed to knock things back quite a bit and fish seemed somewhat improved.

      I ordered Terminate (they say same as Proform C) and there was a delay in the order. So due to the fact that the koi were so stressed by the PP, I thought it was possibly due to imbedded costia in their gills. I managed to find some Trichloricide in the basement and treated the pond with it. The next day most of the fish looked better.

      Since Trichloricide is no longer a favored pesticide, I waited for the Terminate to arrive. The first dose all was well. The next day I added the second dose. At this time only 1 koi appeared severely stressed and was still hanging out by the airstone. I checked before I went to bed after the second dose and at 333 AM before I went to work and all appeared well. Fish just cruising around the pond.

      When I got home at 333 PM all of my fish were close to dying. All piled up on each other over the air stones. I am not sure why the second dose depleted all the oxygen, but apparently it did. I added more air and started the water back on the flow through. In summer this is probably at least 5,000 gallons per day.

      I have lost some koi, a few the day before the treatments started. A couple after treatments started and then some yesterday during oxygen depletion. Several of these were some of the largest, but there were all sizes even down to some of the smallest, so I am thinking it was because of damage from the costia as well as low oxygen.

      I would think these treatments have knocked the costia back pretty good, but I wanted to do the last treatment of the terminate, which should have been done yesterday. I know I should not add anything else today. I am not sure even how they are doing at this point since they have gone to the bottom of the pond, but they usually do this when it is hot or warm in the summer. They hopefully will come up around 5 PM as this is there usual procedure at feeding time. While the pond is fairly clear at the surface, I can only see down to about 3 foot at the moment.

      I need thoughts on what to do next.
      Nancy



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    2. #2
      cindy's Avatar
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    3. #3
      cindy's Avatar
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      Not convinced it's just costia. Did you scrape and scope? Is the skin dry and rough? Attacking the gills makes me think Flukes instead and Terminate won't touch them. The PP might have knocked them back.

      she seriously started to loose weight and even muscle.
      Again I don't think of costia.

      Waterfall? What kind of air supply and grab the test kits and let us know what's happening with your water.
      Last edited by cindy; 07-28-2014 at 03:35 PM.

    4. #4
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      Nancy,

      I am sorry to see you are having problems. What is the water temperature? Costia is not usually a problem if the water temperature is above 85 deg F.

    5. #5
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Ammonia 0
      nitrite 0
      PH 8.2
      GH and KH 180/200

      Water temperature 75.2 at the surface, probably cooler at 6 foot (summer cooler water sinks?)
      This pond stays cooler in summer and warmer in winter due to flow through water from our geotherm unit.
      Nancy



    6. #6
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I did a scrape and scope after the first couple of days, but after PP on one of the sickest koi. From multiple scrapes at first I saw nothing. Then found 2 things resembling chilodonella, but did not look exactly like the picture and not exactly like a paramecium, so I am unsure that it was chilo.

      I found one immature fluke. I have seen no symptoms of flukes, no blowing, no flashing, no jumping. My koi almost always have a random fluke if you look long enough.

      I finally found the costia in part of the thick mucous and blood scarpeing from the gills.
      Nancy



    7. #7
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      When I had costia before, I noticed the veining and pinkness under the skin. Also the sickest had pink in tail and fins.

      I have read that imbedded costia release toxins into the koi. This is what it looked like. Not exactly like the pink I have seen in koi with infections.
      Nancy



    8. #8
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      Costia is what killed all but one of my goldfish last year. It presented like flukes, but I FINALLY found costia on a scrape and scope, they sure aren't easy to find. By that time it was too late. Although I immediately treated for them, they still died, except for one.

      I hope you get to the bottom of the problem so you don't lose any more fish.

    9. #9
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      Nancy,

      The pond is flow through, so the filters are not having to process all of the waste. Is the ammonia building up when the flow through is shut off for treatment? Could this be contributing to the problems?

      I would say to go ahead and do the third treatment, but if the fish are weakened to the extent that you are describing, it may push them over the edge and that is not the ideal outcome.
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    10. #10
      cindy's Avatar
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      What do the gills look like? Blood red? Wondering if they have some damage vs parasites.

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    11. #11
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I have not gone more than 24 hours without opening the bottom drains and then letting the geotherm refill it. I did this after the PP treatment and after the first Terminate treatment, before adding the second treatment. After the second treatment was when I almost lost all the fish and the flow through has been running since.

      This pond also apparently has enough bacteria living in it to take care of ammonia and nitrite for at least a couple of days. Once in a while the weather hits that perfect temperature in the spring and fall where the heat or AC does not run, but when I test the water it never measures any ammonia or nitrite. I do have a filter that is filled with brushes and matala and the pond water over flows into it and keeps it alive. I sometimes run it if I want to remove the fines from the water and make it more clear, but the pond does not seem to need it.

      I do think another treatment at this point would push some of the survivors over the edge. They did not come up this evening waiting for dinner, but after I threw a few pellets in the eventually came up. They ate very slowly at first, but then picked up and got more active. There are some fish that seemed to be recovering yesterday after adding more air and fresh water, but I did not see them come up so I do not know if they will make it.

      The gills on the ones that died first appeared white after they were dead. I do not know if they were already pale or they turned this way because they had been dead for a while. They did seem to have extra mucous in them.

      They one I scoped still had deep pink gills, maybe a little ragged, but not enough that I could be sure.
      Nancy



    12. #12
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Most of the fish that died were the ones that came from Japan. Of course I lost the best and my favorites.
      Apparently my domestics of which most raised here are more hardy or resistant.

      I also had collected a few butterfly koi from Yamasan and Suda. Almost all of them died, but only 2 of the butterflys that raised here died, one after the oxygen depletion and one before and they were ones that were small for their age.

      Absolutely none of the ugly koi died.

      I love the fish from Japan, but I have not decided if I will buy more or not. I did not think they would be any more susceptible than the other fish.

      I waited a long time to get a female Shinoda Hi Utsuri. She was really growing well and her pattern was improving as she grew. I had a male also, good deep red color but not that good. He lived, she died.

      I had two goshiki, one much better than the other. You know the best one died.

      I had a really nice deep red and black Yamasan long fin Hi Utsuri female. I got her as a fingerling and have had her quite a few years. I got a male recently so I could breed them. She died, he is still in the QT tank. I am thinking if I want to breed him maybe I should breed him to a deep orange domestic butterfly survivor that is an off spring of one of my koi and so far a survivor that has not showed any signs of being sick.

      Also most of the ones that died were female and maybe all of them were female. I can't think of any that were male at the moment.
      Nancy



    13. #13
      cindy's Avatar
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      Wondering if you should look into KHV testing. It can mimic signs of costia, also lowers resistance for parasites.
      I got a male recently so I could breed them. She died, he is still in the QT tank. I am thinking if I want to breed him maybe I should breed him to a deep orange domestic butterfly survivor that is an off spring of one of my koi and so far a survivor that has not showed any signs of being sick.
      Some fish are carriers.

    14. #14
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I doubt it is KHV.

      I think most of the fish were getting better after the PP and first Terminate treatment. Only had one or 2 in lots of distress at that point, until the second treatment of Terminate. I think those fish were pushed over the edge by lack of oxygen. Ideally I should have been at home to watch them the whole time, but I had to work and son and husband did not look at the pond. I just thought they would be OK because they were not stressed in any way after the first Terminate treatment.

      I removed 17 floaters today, most were the largest koi.

      The ones that came up last night to eat were not among the dead.

      Making between 1/3 and 1/2 water change today. The Terminate killed all the carpet algae on the sides of the pond and made more brown filthy mess than the PP treatment.
      Nancy



    15. #15
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I saw an interesting thing with one of the fish. I have a metallic karashigoi that got from Russ. She had started to look like a gray chagoi.

      She was one of the later ones to get sick, but improved after treatment. After the first dose of Terminate, she turned green with metallic brushed gold look on her head and pectoral fins. The green did not appear to be any stain from the malachite green but seemed to be a definate color change like a chaemelion changing color. Any way after water changes she has gone back to her gray color.
      Nancy



    16. #16
      KurtG's Avatar
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      If you killed all your carpet algae, you placed a serious drain on your dissolved oxygen with all that decaying matter in the pond.

    17. #17
      ademink's Avatar
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      The Terminate can also be stronger the 2nd and 3rd doses b/c the first application can often lose effectiveness b/c it is consumed by organics in the pond.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

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      I am going through this same nightmare right now. I've lost 11 koi so far and yes of course it has been all the imports! I have done one full Proform C treatment. I have also had the vet give antibiotics and fluids to the more expensive fish. Next step is either a good salt bath or possibly PP. These things come on quick and violently! My filter bacteria has pretty much been wiped out from all of the treatments so now I'm fighting ammonia! can't seem to win!

    19. #19
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      By "full Proform C treatment" do you mean adding the recommended dose of Proform C each day for 3 days with 20% water changes between treatments? I have not known Proform C to affect the filter adversely. What else have you added to the pond that would have set back the filter?

      Have you scraped and scoped to be sure there are not flukes present? Proform C and antibiotics will not eliminate flukes. For those, you need Prazi.

    20. #20
      ckoi is offline Senior Member
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      My experience is that Proform C did wipe out my filter bacteria as well because I read ammonia or nitrites after the treatment. I think if your filter and pond is not fully mature or you have slightly less bio. than Proform C will adversely affect your filter. I also saw some fish lose beni after the treatment as well.

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