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    Thread: Matt's kujaku spawn 2014

    1. #41
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Okay, so, i think i'm right, you're a couple days ahead of me.
      Mine spawned on 5/12 and 5/13.

      I think hatch was 5/18 or so.
      What zone (horticultural) zone are you in if you know?
      I'm in zone 6, but this year, seemed like we may have encroached on zone 5.
      On the USDA cold hardiness map, we are in zone 7A. But temps vary a lot. For example, the average daily low for December was 8 degrees F below the previous December. Maybe they should call us zone 7 +/- 2.

      The kujaku spawned on 5/9 and the eggs hatched on 5/12. I feel fortunate because that's kind of early for us. The first week of June seems to be the most typical spawning time, though we've seen accidental spawns happen anywhere from late March to early July. They started spawning at 68 F water temperature just before it really cooled off. By the time they were done in the morning, the water was 65 F. So I think I almost had to wait another couple of weeks.

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    2. #42
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      I have to keep mine in the shade due to the sun as I've had them hatch the second morning all be duds. This set started around 2am the second night and seemed to be done by the 3rd afternoon.
      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      -------------- lucky you, you live in florida!

    3. #43
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      On the USDA cold hardiness map, we are in zone 7A. But temps vary a lot. For example, the average daily low for December was 8 degrees F below the previous December. Maybe they should call us zone 7 +/- 2.

      The kujaku spawned on 5/9 and the eggs hatched on 5/12. I feel fortunate because that's kind of early for us. The first week of June seems to be the most typical spawning time, though we've seen accidental spawns happen anywhere from late March to early July. They started spawning at 68 F water temperature just before it really cooled off. By the time they were done in the morning, the water was 65 F. So I think I almost had to wait another couple of weeks.
      Matt, we're all watching to see how they grow. Is there a time when one can stop running outside with a flashlight? I did that this eve and found a plugged drain, water rising. geesh. Hate to think how that would have gone.

      Re: what zone. yes, technically you're in a warmer zone than i am, but this winter pretty much gave our zones new parameters.

      Continued success, Matt.

      max



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    4. #44
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      Unless you know how patterns and color develop from fry, I think I would just cull for deformities and watch and wait. You can cull too early if you don't know, and may throw away your best fry. Is there anyone who can answer how pattern develops in Kujaku from fry on this forum? I would think (based on the appearance of the parents) that there might not be too many to cull.....Congratulations!

    5. #45
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Hi, Matt,
      I think it's been a couple of weeks since you last posted fry pics. Would love to see how your fry are doing. Can you put a little measuring tape in the bowl?



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




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    6. #46
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
      Unless you know how patterns and color develop from fry, I think I would just cull for deformities and watch and wait. You can cull too early if you don't know, and may throw away your best fry.
      I think you are right. Today was Day 30 (after hatching). After dark, I netted up a small percentage (less than 300) of the total, checked for deformities only, keeping about 65% of those I netted for now. Many of the others had flat faces, though a few had crooked spines or mouths or very swollen bellies (small fry, not tobi).

      Max, since it was night, I did not take pictures, though I will try to get some soon. A small number of the largest fry were 1-1/4”, while the smallest were 5/8”.

      A few of the larger ones are beginning to show a faint yellow on white pattern, but it is still too small and faint for me to make a judgment about it. Lots of them have black markings. Some now appear more white than yellow.

    7. #47
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Max, since it was night, I did not take pictures, though I will try to get some soon. A small number of the largest fry were 1-1/4”, while the smallest were 5/8”.

      A few of the larger ones are beginning to show a faint yellow on white pattern, but it is still too small and faint for me to make a judgment about it. Lots of them have black markings. Some now appear more white than yellow.
      Matt, thanks for thinking to do that. want pix, but at your leisure!
      did you think the percentage of deformed fry was about what you expected?
      do you have pics of kujaku fry from breeder's spawn?

      Thanks for taking us along with you.

      max



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    8. #48
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      I want to see some pics too , matt

    9. #49
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      Here are some new pictures from today (Day 31). More differences between them are beginning to appear.
      Attached Images Attached Images          

    10. #50
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      Good looking fry, and pretty consistent size (a few smaller ones, but not many.) I think you are probably thrilled - I would be! And likely enjoying watching them develop!

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    11. #51
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Here are some new pictures from today (Day 31). More differences between them are beginning to appear.
      Matt!
      So sorry, that i just got notification of your post.
      4 days late!
      I think they are tremendous-looking. Vigorous and big!
      Do you have pictures of kujaku fry from a japanese breeder to compare with?
      What are you thinking at this point about what's a keeper and what's not?
      I know you must feel good about this hatch!



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




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    12. #52
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      Looking good. Keep posting.

      proudly Canadian

    13. #53
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      Thanks everyone. Yes, I am very pleased with the development so far, while knowing there is a long way to go. I plan to keep posting pictures occasionally.

      The only kujaku fry pictures that I found were from a someone who I do not think was a professional breeder, showing the fry they kept and the fry they did not keep. I can only guess they were around 2"-3". They seemed to cull most of those that had black spots on their heads. I'm not sure if I will do it that way, especially since black head spots often seem to go away in other types of fry I've raised. Unless I learn to do otherwise, I would probably let them develop more to see what they become. My goal is to get some koi that look good to me, not specifically good looking kujaku or koi that would score well in a show.

      Searching the web, I have found kujaku culling tips from a few professional breeders and well known folks in the hobby. I was glad to hear some say that other varieties such as ogon, aka matsuba, gin matsuba, hariwake, etc ... can come from spawns of kujaku. There seems to be a wide range of opinion on how soon to start culling, how early and how much to focus on metallic shine, and whether dark markings on the head tend to clear up or not.

      I welcome any other suggestions. Here is what I have in mind for now:

      I've been removing deformities whenever I see them and get around to it. So far, these have mainly been flat faces or crooked heads or mouths. There have also been a few with crooked spines or tails or bloated bellies.

      I don't feel like their colors/patterns are set quite well enough yet to cull based upon patterns. I suppose that can wait a while. At some point I may cull those that are all or mostly one color, except for a few of the best that might make a good kin matsuba or something else.

      I will also factor in good hikari shine, but if I see any with extra nice patterns that lack much shine, I may keep some for my own enjoyment and learning. Since my non-metallic koi don't shine, I am not sure why I would dislike one of these that did not shine much. But I may change my mind after watching them develop a while.

      Besides a good pattern, robust body shape, and good size, I'm also partial to large pectoral fins that give the koi an extra strong looking presence in the water. (No wimpy fins.)

      I like for the kujaku's matsuba scales to be very dark on the outer half so that they have a bold look against the orange backdrop (and preferable in the white areas as well) with good uniformity across the koi. But the matsuba should not be so large as to hide most of the orange and white. I get the impression a lot of people don't care much if the matsuba is very dark. But to me, that's the main thing that makes kujaku special.

      On down the line, I'll have to cull those with scattered scales, but they are too small for me to see that clearly yet.

    14. #54
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      Problem, or at least a concern at this point: I am starting to occasionally find a few dead fry (about 1") floating in the pond. And I don't know why. The other fry (maybe a thousand, give or take a few hundred) appear to be acting normally, eating, swimming (though they like to hover around the sides a lot at this age). Here is the timeline of events of recent days:

      Over the last few weeks, I would occasionally find a single dead fry. I was not surprised, and figure that out of 1000 plus tiny koi, stuff happens. Evening of Day 37 (6/17), netted up about 200 (a small percentage of the total) and culled about 35% of that group for deformities. Nothing unusual so far.

      Then on Day 39 (evening of 6/19), I found 4 fry floating dead. I had wondered if they had died from stress or injuries from the culling two days before (since they are so small). After this, with rain in forecast, added a little baking soda, raising KH from 40 to 50 ppm. Day 40, I found 5 fry floating dead in evening. This morning, Day 41, I found 7 more dead fry floating. Now I suspect this is not due to the culling 4 days earlier. Water parameters seem fine: Ammonia and Nitrite are 0.1 & 0.05 ppm, PH 7.3, KH 50 ppm, Temp 72 F. With just a few exceptions, most of the fry are in the 3/4" to 1-1/4" size range, and the dead ones seem about average size. I saw an 8th fry floundering at the surface, and it died not long after. So that's 17 unexplained deaths in about 48 hours. Examining it with a magnifying glass, I did not see any marks or indications of why it died. Out of 1000 or so, 17 is not many, but since I don't know that cause, I'm concerned it could escalate. Any ideas or suggestions? Thanks.
      Last edited by Matt24; 06-21-2014 at 11:56 AM.

    15. #55
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      I had a little die off with my first spawn this year

      I made a list of things I did
      To much netting starting at 2nd week
      Was a early spawn and had cold days
      I kept feeding them with the cooler 55 deg water
      I did add koi clay 3days before die off
      Just a natural die off

      I did get to put up about 50 black fry into my mother pond

      Now I working with the 2nd smaller spawn and they are growing fast with the warm water

    16. #56
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Matt, I'm sorry to hear this, and thanks for posting it. It will be good to know what you figure out.
      I'm wondering if there's an acceptable or expected number of dead fry on their way to maturity, and maybe not something you did or didn't do - just "failure to thrive."
      Pls. keep us posted.
      Max



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    17. #57
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      Hi Matt,
      I'd also be concerned on losing this many 1" fry in a short time frame.
      To me this points to a water quality issue.
      You wrote "Ammonia and Nitrite are 0.1 & 0.05 ppm"
      What test kit are you using that reads the Ammonia and Nitrite this low?
      If it is a reagent test kit then the lowest positive reading for both is usually between 0 and 0.25.
      Are you sure it is not Ammonia 1.0 and Nitrite 0.50?
      Bindi
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    18. #58
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      Hi Matt,
      I'd also be concerned on losing this many 1" fry in a short time frame.
      To me this points to a water quality issue.
      You wrote "Ammonia and Nitrite are 0.1 & 0.05 ppm"
      What test kit are you using that reads the Ammonia and Nitrite this low?
      If it is a reagent test kit then the lowest positive reading for both is usually between 0 and 0.25.
      Are you sure it is not Ammonia 1.0 and Nitrite 0.50?
      Thanks Bindi. The test kits are by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, a type that I've used for many years. They use liquid drops in a test tube. The color cards for ammonia and nitrite do each show a color for 0.0 and a color for 0.25 ppm. But the test tube showed an in-between shade for each, and I approximated the ppm by interpolating between the colors. The ammonia test was not quite a perfect yellow (0.0), but had much less green than the yellow-green that would be 0.25. So I called it 0.1. The nitrite test was not quite a perfect sky blue (0.0), but was very close, much less violet than 0.25. So I called it 0.05. So I am about as sure as I can be that the ammonia and nitrite are okay.

      [Just to test the test kit, I tested my tap water, which normally comes out with ammonia above 1 ppm (sad but true) and 0 nitrite. Sure enough, it was sky blue 0.0 for the nitrite, but a bright green 1.2 ppm, for the ammonia. And if anyone is wondering, no, I don't use this water in the fry pond. I only pump in water from the big pond that has been aged and filtered to remove the ammonia.]

      I did find 2 more dead fry yesterday evening and 5 more this morning. So that's a total of 24 in 4 days. I flushed the 100 gallon biological filter for the first time since the day before hatching (six weeks ago). It was not all that dirty, since the fish load has been very light over that time.

      Delbert: You had mentioned 'too much netting' as one of several possible reasons for some small fry deaths in your experience this spring. I remembered how in years past, I had seen netting being hard on the small ones. So though I have continued with culling deformities, I've switched back to an old method. Instead of dipping up hundreds, culling some, and putting some back, I'm identifying deformities while they are in the pond (near the sides) and dipping out one at a time. At this age and with my set up, its not that hard, and its a little easier at night with a headlamp, since they can't see the net. When they get bigger and start staying deeper in the water, I'll switch to other methods.

      Thanks for the tips everyone. I will certainly be monitoring this situation.

    19. #59
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Hey, Matt, now, i'm finding little corpses also. Not big batches of them, but I think i had a dozen today. They have already faded to white when i find them and they're only 3/4 of an inch, or less. i have tested my water. my ammo is zero. it's the same water as the water from the big mud pond which is what i'm pumping from. i don't net. I scoop with a plastic bowl, but maybe the stress of that is too much. i also use API test kits. Thanks again for keeping us up to speed.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
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    20. #60
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
      Hey, Matt, now, i'm finding little corpses also. Not big batches of them, but I think i had a dozen today. They have already faded to white when i find them and they're only 3/4 of an inch, or less. i have tested my water. my ammo is zero. it's the same water as the water from the big mud pond which is what i'm pumping from. i don't net. I scoop with a plastic bowl, but maybe the stress of that is too much. i also use API test kits. Thanks again for keeping us up to speed.
      Sorry to hear about that Max. Hopefully this is just weeding out some of the weak ones and not something more damaging. The dead ones I've been finding range from newly dead to half decomposed, but most look like they have been dead quite a while, which makes me think they were on the bottom for a day or two before floating up.

      I found 4 more dead this evening (28 in 4 days). I did a little culling, and I checked scrapings from two of the fry under a microscope. I saw nothing moving, nothing that looked like a parasite. These two particular fry had not been displaying any symptoms. [I should say that I am not very skilled with the scope, but I have identified flukes and chilodonella on koi in the past.]

      Right now, I am watching closely, but not planning to do any treatment. At this point, I don't even know what I would be treating. (I do have salt and proform-c on hand.) The other fry seem active with good appetites.

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