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    Thread: Please judge this Sakai kohaku and Omo shiro

    1. #1
      OCkoiFan's Avatar
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      Please judge this Sakai kohaku and Omo shiro

      I bough these two koi last May 2013..going to bring it back for growing contest at my dealer this coming May. I don't have the last year pics but only some current pics.
      Kohaku and shiro are about 12"-14" appxxi...I think they was around 7-8" last year....any suggestion for hi or sumi? Gender? Appreciate much
      Ockoifan
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    2. #2
      inazuma28 is offline Senior Member
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      Both are really nice fish. Both have really nice body lines, the shiro outshine the kohaku imho. The skin looks really nice, the sumi is beautiful and showing exactly where you would want it to show. the kohaku has a very nice pattern but is lacking in interesting pattern on the shoulder. the beni looks to be of good quality and the shiroji is just ok. It is not bad but it lacks depth. both are to young for me to sex.... but my guess would be the shiro is female and the kohaku is male. NICE PICKS ON BOTH OF THEM.

    3. #3
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      The sumi on the SU is very nice!! And it looks like there is still a bit more to come in on the shoulders and the face..

      I like the Kohaku too... the beni seems pretty good… its head is a little long/pointy but to me overall these fish look very good.

      Nice picks and welcome to KP…
      Last edited by Redman8102; 04-05-2014 at 12:10 AM.

    4. #4
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      Both are pretty nice for GO fish.

      Kohaku:
      Beni is stretching well with the growth. The bone structure looks nice to me. I also like the big fish beni pattern.

      SU:
      Nice skin glow. The tail looks a little thin but this is overall a thin fish so the tail might be OK long term. The pattern is clean and balanced.

    5. #5
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      Thanks for the value advices and warm welcome...I was amaze with the shiro because it did not had any sumi at all last 11months then slowly emerged due to my hard water in california.I'm guessing

    6. #6
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      On the shiro I also think that sumi is little too heavy on left side..is it going to be a disadvantage for the judging?

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      ps. make sure to document the changes on the SU. take tons of photos because it is amazing how much they change.

    8. #8
      LadysSolo is offline Senior Member
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      No, I don't think the sumi is too heavy on the left, because to me, it looks like more is going to come up on the right. Maybe not right away, but I think I see the shadow of more to come.

    9. #9
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Well, here's another opinion for what it's worth -

      The kohaku appears that ,over the long run, will be the better of the two fish. The body is thicker throughout, the skin is better, although it may appear to be a bit creamier at this stage, but the beni has hoshi throughout the entire pattern area which adds to the quality of the fish. The ozutsu is thick, but also appears to be taller along with the shoulders, which will allow for better growth and appearance later. While growouts are fun, it's about the final product as they grow mature. This, IMHO, is the better fish actually.

      The Shiro - this one appears to have the typical Shiro Utsuri body line, short/wide, with a small ozutsu/tail area. It's shorter in height than the shoulders, which are also wider overall than the rest of the fish. My suspicion is that this will only get worse looking as the fish grows larger. The skin is not as nice as the Kohaku. The white should not be a hard white like on the shoulder area. It should show a bit more transparency, kinda like skim milk. It should also have a nice sheen/luster to it as well. I think the sumi is decent, and still a long ways from finishing. Remember, it's not a race to the finish line, it's like the tortoise and the hare. Slow and steady wins this race 99 out of 100 times!

      I take it these will be going back for the Mystic Koi Grow out?
      Mike

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    10. #10
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      Actually its AndrewKoi International in Anaheim CA. Every first saturday of May they have a growing contest. They have about couple thousand of 1yr old available at $100 each. Take the koi home then do ur magic and bring it back next year for judging on all aspects. There are awards and who brough their fish back get to pick the new kois first...and that is my advantage for bringing these jewels back. It is also learning experience that is so value...

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      ps. make sure to document the changes on the SU. take tons of photos because it is amazing how much they change.
      Yup..will sure post more pics in a few months after they finished my trial kenzen 49% protein

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by LadysSolo View Post
      No, I don't think the sumi is too heavy on the left, because to me, it looks like more is going to come up on the right. Maybe not right away, but I think I see the shadow of more to come.
      Kool.another positive approach

    13. #13
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      The kohaku is the nice one. The SU is a common Omosako SU with nothing to expect but the expected. Enjoy the SU now. The Kohaku is nice now and has some future promise.
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      The kohaku is the nice one. The SU is a common Omosako SU with nothing to expect but the expected. Enjoy the SU now. The Kohaku is nice now and has some future promise.
      I fully disagree in regards to the shiro. The kohaku is nice, i wont argue that, but this is not the "average" shiro that you would find on an auction site or pond retailer. the skin is showing superior luster at the shoulder, the neck, and down the whole dorsal. the body line is long and strong. the head is both long and wide and the sumi is deep blue-black with a lacquer luster. I think both of these fish have improvement in their future. as for the ozutso being thin, it isnt. These fish, although they may be the same age, are at slightly different stages of development. If you need proof of this, just look at the skin on the faces and noses. There is no indication here, that i can see, that suggests that in the next growing season the ozutso will not thicken right up. my omo's sure did. the picture i am including to show this is a NOT MY KOI. I wish it were. In terms of development, your shiro is somewhere between the first pic and second, much closer to the first. but you can see it goes from having a puny tail section, then fills out a bit in its nisai year and then by the end of the four years has a very nice body overall. it is also good to keep in mind that as far as body goes, It is much harder to find the "ideal" body on a fish that is non gosanke. the gosanke are just more refined because the are the types that are focal points for most breeders.
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      I fully disagree in regards to the shiro. The kohaku is nice, i wont argue that, but this is not the "average" shiro that you would find on an auction site or pond retailer. the skin is showing superior luster at the shoulder, the neck, and down the whole dorsal. the body line is long and strong. the head is both long and wide and the sumi is deep blue-black with a lacquer luster. I think both of these fish have improvement in their future. as for the ozutso being thin, it isnt. These fish, although they may be the same age, are at slightly different stages of development. If you need proof of this, just look at the skin on the faces and noses. There is no indication here, that i can see, that suggests that in the next growing season the ozutso will not thicken right up. my omo's sure did. the picture i am including to show this is a NOT MY KOI. I wish it were. In terms of development, your shiro is somewhere between the first pic and second, much closer to the first. but you can see it goes from having a puny tail section, then fills out a bit in its nisai year and then by the end of the four years has a very nice body overall. it is also good to keep in mind that as far as body goes, It is much harder to find the "ideal" body on a fish that is non gosanke. the gosanke are just more refined because the are the types that are focal points for most breeders.
      Based on the most recent post by the OP, the grow out fish are priced at $100. Do you really think Omosako would allow something of the quality of the progression pics of the shiro you posted to leave Japan as a tosai? And, be sold wholesale, for under $50 to the dealer?

      Neither Appliance Guy or I said it was a "bad" fish, just won't turn out to be the caliber of the Kohaku pictured. Of course, anything can happen, and the outcome is certainly in the hands of the OP for water quality, feeding regimen/food quality, and husbandry skills.
      Mike

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    16. #16
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      i did not mean to infer that the fish would turn out like the one i posted... it was just an illustration meant to show how sometimes a puny little tosai tail tube can develop.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      I fully disagree in regards to the shiro. The kohaku is nice, i wont argue that, but this is not the "average" shiro that you would find on an auction site or pond retailer.
      Actually, it is an "average" shiro that IS found at pond retailer. Or did you not catch the part that it was purchased at Andrews for a hundred bucks? OP even said "a couple thousand" were on sale. Not trying to beat up the koi, in fact I own a $100 Omosako Shiro- way down here in FL. I feel this is a great excercise and much can be experienced from this koi, but let's be realistic here.
      Tim can always be reached at 850-380-7824 or timnye850@gmail.com

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by Appliance Guy View Post
      Actually, it is an "average" shiro that IS found at pond retailer. Or did you not catch the part that it was purchased at Andrews for a hundred bucks? OP even said "a couple thousand" were on sale. Not trying to beat up the koi, in fact I own a $100 Omosako Shiro- way down here in FL. I feel this is a great excercise and much can be experienced from this koi, but let's be realistic here.
      Yes i read the OP, and all that means is it was a good pick from a good bunch at a great price point. This is well above average for the omo shiro's you find at that price point. I have paid more than double for similar quality fish. It is pretty funny that people will look at a price and immediately judge a koi's quality based upon price and not what they see. Look at the shiroji, THE LUSTER, and sumi on this fish… it is pretty darn good. not comparable at all to the average $100 fish. I have quite a bit of experience with shiro's, and a more than sufficient amount to be able to tell a good one from a bad one from a great one. this one is not great, but it is better than good. How about you go on kodama or any other auction site and tell me what a $100.00 shiro looks like and then tell me that this one is even close. Even better yet, lets revisit this same fish in a year and then follow up the discussion based on the development.

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    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
      Yes i read the OP, and all that means is it was a good pick from a good bunch at a great price point. This is well above average for the omo shiro's you find at that price point. I have paid more than double for similar quality fish. It is pretty funny that people will look at a price and immediately judge a koi's quality based upon price and not what they see. Look at the shiroji, THE LUSTER, and sumi on this fish… it is pretty darn good. not comparable at all to the average $100 fish. I have quite a bit of experience with shiro's, and a more than sufficient amount to be able to tell a good one from a bad one from a great one. this one is not great, but it is better than good. How about you go on kodama or any other auction site and tell me what a $100.00 shiro looks like and then tell me that this one is even close. Even better yet, lets revisit this same fish in a year and then follow up the discussion based on the development.
      That's a GREAT idea!

      However, you can't compare the prices between dealers in many cases. And, I don't think, in most cases over the last year or two, that Kodama should be included in the discussion. I haven't found anything on the auctions that I would consider purchasing or even bidding on since late 2012! Someone else used the term "scratch and dent" in reference to Kodama auctions and based on what I've seen there in the last 18 months, I would say it's a good summation of the quality available. Also, consider where folks live and the # of dealers selling good to high quality fish. Andy Moo, who I've known for many years, has a good relationship with MANY Japanese breeders. I've been there when he was there and he's shown me pics of what he's purchased for his shop. Not too many compare with his eye for quality and the very good pricing he gets. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Omosako gave him better quality than normal for some better grade tosai, especially if he purchased in a large volume. Yes, this fish is what I would consider higher than average grade, but the body line tells me that's as far as it goes. So, yes, let's wait and revisit the thread when the OP posts update pics in the Fall. I'd also be interested to hear what Andy says at the growout meeting next month!
      Mike

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