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    Thread: Pond in greenhouse

    1. #1
      kyrkebro's Avatar
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      Pond in greenhouse

      Hallo Guys.
      Iīve to test an idea at this splendid forum(as so many times before). Have a greenhouse 8.5mX4.20m. Iīm really tired of moving dirt in and out of that house, so why not try Aquaponics, I thought. Itīs gonna be a lot of digging, but Iīm kind of used to that and itīs the last time Iīll do that?
      I'll probably go all the way with Aquaponics o rafting. Rafts of styrofoam. Plant-beds becomes prox 20cm deep o 40cm wide Concrete and polyester. Easy to flush, which I certainly have to do often, with 110 pipes, so it will speed up the stuff. The filter boxes 40X30X200-300cm long with Jap mat or should I build boxes with MB-principle?? The outlets into the pond, going out somewhere 1m above the bottom, slightly directed towards the bottom. BD, one skimmer and two air-lifts 110mm. Iīll end up with 10-12M3, 2m deep. The filters and most of the beds will be covered with stone and concrete slabs. Crazy?
      Question: where on the line do I put my airlifts, after the plant-beds or in front? After= higher level in pond, in front= higher level in plant-beds.
      Elias ;-)
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      Last edited by kyrkebro; 02-15-2014 at 08:04 PM.

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    2. #2
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      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      The filters and most of the beds will be covered with stone and concrete slabs. Crazy?
      Yes, it is crazy. I like it. I would cover with wood to make access easier. Or not cover at all. I'd put plant beds over the filters.

      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      Question: where on the line do I put my airlifts, after the plant-beds or in front? After= higher level in pond, in front= higher level in plant-beds.
      It looks to me like the water level in the beds and tank would always be the same level, maybe a side view would help make that clearer.


      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      The filter boxes 40X30X200-300cm long with Jap mat or should I build boxes with MB-principle??
      I'm not sure your goal. Are you wanting bio filters because your fish load is going to be too much for the plants to handle? In a perfect system a bio filter isn't needed, the plant beds are the bio filters.

      I do read a lot about aquaponic people focused on conversion of ammonia to nitrate but that's a bit misleading. It doesn't seem to be widely known but plants consume ammonia directly. So there's no need to convert to nitrate first. Plants even prefer ammonia over nitrate. Ammonia here refers to total ammonia, not actual NH3.

      More specifically plants consume ammonium (NH4+), but there is some unproven theories that ammonia (NH3) can get into the plant and be converted to ammonium there and used. But even if only ammonium is used that uptake will also reduce ammonia because more will convert to ammonium to stay in a ratio that depends on pH and temp. That conversion is fast because it's just ion movement.

      Factor in that these systems really need to be lower pH than most ponds, that means more ammonium than ammonia so plant uptake is even better.

      But if you don't have enough plant beds to handle the fish load then conversion to nitrate would be needed. MB is way better imo for bio than mats.
      Last edited by Waterbug; 02-16-2014 at 03:25 AM.

    3. #3
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      Hallo Waterbug and thanks for advice.
      The whole system is powered by those airlifts and they just move water. So the difference between the pond and plant-beds will hopefully just be an inch or two, depending on how much resistance I get from the pipes, bends, plant-beds etc. I think, by placing the airlifts in front of the plant beds, it will be easier to control the levels in the beds?
      I, or more accurate, the Koi, donīt like ammonia: Itīs poison to them, so I need a really good bio-system to take care of those levels of ammonia and nitrates. I donīt know how well the plants are going to take care of that little issue, especially during spring and upstart, so the MB or the Jap-mats are more of a security-system or a helper to secure good water for my friends, the koi and the plants.
      The slabs will help me to move around more easily and maybe the contrast between the concrete/slabs, will create a nice effect. Maybe wood would create the same effect, but being much easier to move around? Thank for that advice. Iīm sure Iīve to build a little bridge over the skimmer part of the pond. Thatīs a lot easier with wood. I love larchboards.
      Elias :-)
      Last edited by kyrkebro; 02-16-2014 at 05:15 PM.

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      i have a green house i grow koi and plants in.
      in the summer its to hot here so i take the koi out fore 3 months .
      i found you don't have to run much water through the plants and more though the filter.
      just a garden hose through the plants and 7000 gallons an hour through my 7000 gallon pond .
      my vortec is out side with insulation on it .
      you will need some type of trickle tower to degas or you will get root rot.
      bad pic but you can see my trickle tower in the back.Name:  PC233184.jpg
Views: 4562
Size:  138.0 KBName:  PC273230.jpg
Views: 2559
Size:  67.0 KB the vortec in the second pic has a microstrainer in it for leaves.
      you should be able to feed all winter with no heat
      Last edited by tsippel; 02-16-2014 at 12:17 PM.

    5. #5
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      Thank you so much for sharing Tsippel.
      Why would I get root rot if I donīt have a tower? Iīve air lifts to produce oxygen, BD with air and Iīll have a large surface with nice bacteria.
      During the winter I have to close down, otherwise it will be to expensive to heat. This is Sweden!!! I have during a good winter -25C: Thats -13F. 3-4 feet snow. Iīve to shut it down, lower the water table and cover it with styroform. Just add some air bubbles.
      Do you heat your greenhouse during the winter in Pittsburgh?
      Canīt you cool it during summer? I have an idea about a loop with a 4" pipe underground, which I can open during too hot days. I think overheating might be a problem.
      Elias :-)

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      i havent heated in the past but this year i got my 1,000,000 btu wood coal boiler running and keep the water 75 degrees .
      ln the future i want to deepen the pond to 8 feet but for now its 2 -3 feet deep
      your probably right the air lift should degas the water
      Last edited by tsippel; 02-16-2014 at 04:07 PM.

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      I believe the key for using plants as main filtration system is the media that you want to use for your plant with proper design planning. For heating the greenhouse is quite simple, provide your region can provide at least 4-8 hours sun and good clear cover material can allow sun heat go through and trap it well combine with smart air flow exchange then you don't need any heat to sustain your pond temp average about 10C in winter even though outside temp may be -15 or more. Make sure your pond is deeper than 6 feet with proper 4 sides insulated pond and utilize the bottom pond surface with geothermal heat conducting technique then you will be amazing how nice temp your pond can get.

    8. #8
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      I have no answers, but it's great to see you posting again Elias!!
      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      The whole system is powered by those airlifts and they just move water. So the difference between the pond and plant-beds will hopefully just be an inch or two, depending on how much resistance I get from the pipes, bends, plant-beds etc. I think, by placing the airlifts in front of the plant beds, it will be easier to control the levels in the beds?
      I'm not understanding this. My assumption is what you said, the difference in water level is basically the same. I understand what you mean that pumping water into the bed would make the water level there a bit higher, but this would be more like less than 1/16" I would guess. My assumption is also because I'm guessing from the picture that the return from the bed and pipe to the tank are both below water surface. If true that would keep the water levels basically the same.

      On the other hand if you pumped water from the pond into the beds and they overflowed back into the pond it would be different. All evaporation loss would appear in the pond and the levels would be very different. Beds would stay a constant level and pond would vary. So without a drawing of the side elevation I can't guess.

      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      I, or more accurate, the Koi, donīt like ammonia: Itīs poison to them, so I need a really good bio-system to take care of those levels of ammonia and nitrates. I donīt know how well the plants are going to take care of that little issue, especially during spring and upstart, so the MB or the Jap-mats are more of a security-system or a helper to secure good water for my friends, the koi and the plants.
      Yes, it's tricky. In aquaponics people often try maximize plant and fish production. A Koi pond the focus is totally on the fish.

      I suggest looking really close at claims in aquapnics. From my research I think many backyard hobbyists provide more optimism than data. When I read stuff from commercial growers or people doing this for more than a year the story is much different. They experience serious problems keeping these things running. A large grower here in AZ had to give up and ended up sending water from fish tanks to vegetables planted in soil, and then adding fresh water to the tanks. So kind of a flow-thru fish tank and the waste water went to normal irrigation.

      Decomposition in beds creating ammonia seems to be a major problem. The vortex will help but you'd still have a lot of decomposition in the beds and even inside the vortex itself. Raft systems are less of a problem, but still a problem.

      Also, the nitrifying bacteria slow down as the water gets colder. So you can get into a Catch-22. If the plants are working you don't need the bio filters. If the plants aren't working do to low temps the bio filter may not make up the difference because their conversion rate is also diminished.

      And of course trying to keep the water temp out of aeromonas alley can be an issue. Grow beds are perfect homes for aeromonas bacteria.

      It seems to be kind of tricky from what I've read. I think it's a lot easier, if Koi are the focus, to make a more standard koi pond system and built plant beds above the filters and just use waste water from the vortex to water the plants and not have water from the plant beds return to the pond. But that's just my thinking.

    10. #10
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      On the other hand if you pumped water from the pond into the beds and they overflowed back into the pond it would be different. All evaporation loss would appear in the pond and the levels would be very different. Beds would stay a constant level and pond would vary. So without a drawing of the side elevation I can't guess.

      You are so right, thatīs the way Iīll go. Iīll show you a simple drawing at the end.
      From the pond---to the vortex---to a, what we and the dutch guys call, a collector(big PVC-pipe)--- through the 110 Yamabuki airlift with itīs pressure chamber at the bottom---into the higher water tables filters and plant beds---back to pond.

      You are absolutely right about being careful, before I do something hasty. My friends tell me to go DIRT, but use the waste water to the plants. As you said, Koi first! Thatīs why Iīm asking questions all over the place. Have seen so many stange back yard systems, with sad plants and a happy gardener explaining his super system. Strange buckets and a million hoses. But, I have seen some beautiful systems too, with strong healthy plants and a gardener who isnīt to happy, because he wants better results. So weīll see. The digging starts in October. Then everything will be pre-fabricated, airlifts, collectors, pipings, valves etc. Iīll report you my "tribulations" here and I sure will ask more questions before that.
      Elias :-)
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      from the bottom of the vortex , run a small pump or air lift to the plants .
      run most of the water through the filter.
      that will allow the fish waste time to settle out of the water where the plants are.
      i use vinyl gutter to plant in .

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by kyrkebro View Post
      [I]Have seen so many stange back yard systems, with sad plants and a happy gardener explaining his super system. Strange buckets and a million hoses. But, I have seen some beautiful systems too, with strong healthy plants and a gardener who isnīt to happy, because he wants better results.
      That's been my experience too. Although I first starting researching aquaponics a few years ago when it seemed like there were even more new overly optimistic people, so my view is skewed.

      Here's one of my fav. He seems to have been an aquaponics farmer who's been doing it for awhile and earns money from it so he's serious about what works and doesn't. I also like that someone else filmed and interviewed this guy where as a lot of people seem to be promoting themselves. There are more videos with this guy.


      There are some videos where the plants are doing really well and every once in a great while they'll let slip something about "adding fish emulsion" or some kind of fertilizer. They never really talk about it, more like a 2 or 3 word slip and that's it. I believe many people are adding different kinds of fertilizer to the plants. There was a company out of Australia selling expensive systems to backyard people who I'm pretty sure was using fertilizer because the plants were always in perfect lush condition. Kind of cross referencing this with info from hydroponics where they manipulate the water a lot more, and fish farming, and aquaponic claims seem even more dubious.

      The math doesn't seem to add up. Most systems that have been run for awhile have to implement some filter to remove fish poo because it over loads their systems. To me that's removing a huge amount of the nutrients. One person said something like "I clean the filter out in the roses (in soil) and they're doing really well". Well yeah.

      I'm not saying aquaponics is a scam but it seems to be tricky. I haven't been able to see where the details make sense. I think you're smart to be adding bio filters. Maybe you could consider designing the plant beds so they could be converted to soil based non-recycling or additional bio filters just in case.

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      every system i have seen also has water hyachin at the end of the plant line.
      waterbug do you have a green house or even a koi pond.

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      Click on the Bug's link there are many interesting things posted.

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      the one thing i would do to get though winter with fish.
      before i heated mine i used anacarus in a deep tank separate from fish to keep the nitrate down.
      not sure about spelling maybe some one can help [anacarus]
      there are cold water seaweed that you can eat .
      i never went that far .as to eat it .
      there is a book called 4 seasons gardening that shows you how to raise food through winter with out heat in a green house.

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    18. #18
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      I think with enough beds and plants in those beds you could completely filter the water with the beds. I've found with my experience that I still have to do water changes and I've even considered setting up additional filtration because I didn't have enough grow beds to keep up with the ammonia.

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      What do you use in winter
      For nitrates

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      Pond in a green house

      Tsippel, you asking me what I use to take care of the nitrates during Winter? Inside the green house it will be water changes, depending on weather. Not to many nitrates during hibernation here in Sweden. No food for the Koi in 4 months. Kind of cold most of the time. Drink and dance with your friends and wait for Spring. With a foot of water in the canels, it will freeze to the bottom. The only thing you can grow, is a beard.
      Elias :-)
      ps my koi from the big pond, is inside my traditional root cellar, 8°C for two months, I then raise the temperature during Spring, so it will match the big ponds temp in the end of March beinning of April. The big pond is empty, covered and cleaned. ds
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