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  • Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
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    Thread: What do you get out of two parent Koi?

    1. #41
      wayne1's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      Hi Wayne,
      Yes, we each breed for the traits we want and if the parent fish have the skin quality, body shape, growth potential etc that you want then you increase the odds of producing some with these traits.
      I never said that Akame Kigoi would not bring good skin to their offspring. If they have good skin then that trait will be passed on to some of the fry.
      My discussion here was primarily about your use of the word copy and your much stated "fact" that by using an Akame Kigoi with any other variety parent fish that you can COPY the non Akame Kigoi parent koi in 85% of the offspring from that spawn.
      Hopefully I've helped you to see that it is impossible as whatever other genetics that the Akame Kigoi carries will also be passed on to the fry in the 50/50 male/female chromosome pairing from each parent.
      You have to take into account the base variety (complete genetic make-up) of the Akame Kigoi. The double recessive gene for albinism hides most of these but does not mean that these variety traits will not be passed onto the offspring.

      Thanks for the civilised debate.
      Hi Bindi
      That's fine and yes I have a limited knowledge of genetics ! ,and thanks for taking the time to explain the Akemi ki goi myth and the real facts ! ,and yes ''Copy'' was the wrong word really as it will only give you a majority of what your breeding that type its crossed with in my case Asagi and Sanke ,so the type is Reproduced ,and if patterned like showa, Kohaku, sanke are not exactly reproduced but a full range given out in the fry produced along with a smaller amount of the make up of the fish way back in its line ,so with the skin improved giving the impression of a better fish
      produced !,and yes looking more pure !,so with that knowledge we can make improvements as we go and to our own liking and much more work a head !.

      So you have like any other type of koi , lots of work to do and it still takes time !, it's funny that we get side tracked in our Quest for perfect koi and so many Questions !lol that's life I guess !
      Well its nice to learn more about this fish and what it has to offer in breeding and how we can use it to our advantage as breeders ,and there is not much in the way of printed papers or in this computer age a pdf on this subject !.

      So I will experiment more and more with this fish to see if I can get more out from my breeding efforts !,so far its looking good !.can you explain why I get other types with pink eyes when crossed with koi with sumi ,like showa ,sanke ,Asagi , shiro utsuri, bekko ,will these revert in time back to black eye's as most in the spawn seem to in 8-12 months of age .

      Thanks for the knowledge and for the help in understanding Albino genes !.

    2. #42
      mrbradleybradley is offline Member
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      Apparently I am being called a Pro Breeder - I will take that as a compliment. Not the first time I have been mistaken for someone else. Hey, I was mistaken for a real koi breeder once before LOLs

      Now, I've been using the flash on my camera to see if I can produce some red-eye photography, if anyone can help with that, I'd love to hear about it.
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    3. #43
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Wayne, the only thing I can suggest at this point is your method of discovery.
      Shining a strong light into the eye and seeing red does not mean that they are red eyed.
      A strong light source, pointed at the right angle, will reflect off the area between the retina (highly reflective rod cells) and the sclera, an area that is highly vascularised (high number of blood vessels), and falsely display as red, especially in lower light surroundings, like indoors.

      cheers
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    4. #44
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      Hi,
      I bred birds some years ago, and became quite involved with genetics.
      In the birds the ' x x ' chromosomes are the males, and 'x y ' the females.
      If a particular trait or variety was carried by only 1 'x' chromosome of the male, then the variety or trait was not displayed by this bird.
      If however both 'x ' chromosomes carried this trait, then all the female offspring would display the trait, but the male offspring would be carrying it but not displaying.
      If both parents carried the trait on the 'x' chromosome then all the offspring would be of that variety and would display it.

      Just wondering if it occurs this way in the fish world?
      Hope it's not confusing, but I think it goes a way to explain why so many varieties are produced by koi, and highlights the requirement for breeding records.
      If you're not meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

    5. #45
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Hi, Skidad!
      JR touched on this subject here:
      http://www.koi-bito.com/forum/main-f...ll-open-4.html

      And here is a very good study on Colour Inheritance in Koi if you have the time and inclination. It also touches on sex-linked traits.
      http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=au

      And yes, keeping records of the parents genetic lineage and spawning outcomes goes hand in hand with good breeding practices.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    6. #46
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      Thanks Bindi, will read with interest.
      If you're not meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

    7. #47
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      Thumbs up

      Quote Originally Posted by skidad_2007 View Post
      Thanks Bindi, will read with interest.
      Hi Colin
      You can also use Hormonal Treatment the male hormone '' Testosterone '' can produce all male fish ,some are chromosnally female (XX) BUT !do function as fertile males, these males can be crossed to normal females to produce 100% female line's !.
      Faster growth rates so having a advantage over mixed sex group of fish lines there are papers on this by (Grewe 1996).

      Also Brad & Bindi = to clear things up black eyed koi will not contain any red in the eye to reflect back pink in the Iris ,unlike Humans that you get from bad ! red eye flash photography doe's ,As I use a led torch from above show's the pink eye up nicely in a blue bowl when culling out 85% from my Akemi ki goi spawns ,as they are not 100% and never will be , and this is done at two weeks old to save time and effort .

      Also by Treating eggs and milt with UV-Light -irradiated eggs -will not result in fry die off in 5 days ! it's actually used by many breeders for Control of sex composition in a spawn ,This method is known as Androgenesis before fertilization takes place ,and will result in all female lines ,by blocking the first cell in the egg ,blocking the first cell division .

      this produces Homozygous (single sex ) male and female lines ,this is used for Manipulation in Rapid production of Pure lines and inbred lines and has advantages of producing mono sex lines ,including faster growth rates and of female in the line and male fish lines mature also more quickly but at smaller sizes .

      So Giving the breeder more Control over his lines ,the use of Akemi ki goi will also give you this with a few extra benefits like better skin ,and also less to set up and so this old Japanese Breeder method still has its advantages even over Uv-Light manipulation and less hassle and no need for a Lab ! .
      As the female gene is also copied but not 100% more like 65-85%but more females are produced ,also water PH can also have a influence here as well a Harder water and 8.0-8.5 produce more female fish than soft water and Low PH.

      But this is where my 39 years comes in handy seeing both methods work well in the field in my early years on a koi farm in the north of England using these methods back in the early ninety's.

      Papers are available from ( Nagy et al 1984 and 1987 and May & Grewe 1993 ) the UV-light method was used in Australia to help control Sex of Carp to control numbers due to them taking over rivers and ponds and getting out of control ! ,so its used in a lot of Carp related issues around the world .
      But is a tried and tested way of breeding carp lines over 30 years .

      So breeders still use its advantages in all carp production around the world .
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    8. #48
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      Thanks Wayne.
      I think also irradiated eggs are used in Rainbow trout production - produces strerile females, which don't go out of condition and a better growth rate is achieved.
      Think they call them triploid.
      If you're not meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

    9. #49
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      To try to produce a copy of the females DNA by the use of UV there are a few highly specialised steps involved.
      1. Ultraviolet irradiation of the males sperm, and removal of his DNA, is a relativly easy step. (This can be done by a hobbyist breeder with good knowlege of the process but it will only produce Haploid offspring )
      Haploid offspring (1n) have a characteristic syndrome that makes them unviable and ALL will die post hatch. (Some report within 5 days, some report within 10 days, but none the less they ALL die)
      http://eurekamag.com/research/034/77...usual-carp.php

      The further steps to obtain Diploid (2n), and Triploid (3n) androgynous fish, by heat, cold or pressure treatment is a process that is beyond most of the keepers here.
      Yes, you can clone a fish, and you can also create androgynous fish, but it is a highly specialised process consisiting of exact steps that is only conducted in labs, and usually at great expense.

      I only touched on the subject because you mentioned that you can also "copy" a parent fish by using UV. Yes, UV has been used as a first step in a complex process to clone fish and is only sucessful if the additional steps are implemented.

      Wayne, that is all so far away from what you are claiming and it's the reason I refute your claim, specifically, that you can copy (replicate, same meaning) a parent fish to 85% by using an Akame Kigoi.

      If the Akame Kigoi carried ALL recessive genes (an impossibility) and only passed on recessive genes (also an imposibility) then the offspring would show more of the phenotype of the female if the genes that she passes on are all dominant to each and every loci ( an imposability) for each, and every trait.

      The only way to Copy (or Replicate) a fish is by laboratory methods.

      With line breeding you can increase the wanted traits in the line by reducing the unwanted traits. This is acheived by culling and this helps to reduce unwanted phenotypical traits from that gene pool. You can never reduce them enough to give you an 85% copy of a single parent.
      Both parents must carry the genes for the wanted traits and even then you will still get a high % of fish with atavistic traits, mixed unwanted traits, and maybe a tiny % with mutations.

      Your Asagi x Akami Kigoi spawn produced a high number of Asagi phenotypical fry because the Akame Kigoi male carried a high % of those Asagi genetics also. You have said yourself that you mainly use Akame Kigoi that are from Asagi genetics because you state they are more "pure". This spawn only proved that the Akame Kigoi's genetics were mainly derived from Asagi genetics.

      As far as my response on fish eyes and light reflection it may help if you do not confuse my comments with Bradley's.
      I can only respond to the information you post.

      "So two year's ago , I crossed Midori goi with Akemi ki goi Gin rin form Otsuka these did have blood red eyes and not pink ! and were black to look at ! but if you put a torch beam in the eye they showed red ,blood red ,this is Otsuka type of Akemi ki goi ."

      Here is some information for you about fish eye anatomy.
      http://www.earthlife.net/fish/sight.html

      Cheers
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    10. #50
      mrbradleybradley is offline Member
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      I imagine the audience is now small, but heck, in the absence of requested evidence or references, nothing has changed.
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    11. #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
      I imagine the audience is now small, but heck, in the absence of requested evidence or references, nothing has changed.
      Yes Bindi we do have good labs in the UK ! I have access to one of the best ! ,As for my breeding Akemi ki goi also involves Kujaku ,Kumonryu ,Beni kumonryu , Asagi ,Sanke Kohaku and Ki shusui ,and many other lines involving 28 Breeding sets ,and yes my experimentation in producing a '' Green Showa '' has involved UV-Light manipulation and Androgynous fish lines and Hormone treated fish as well over the past 25 years !.

      And yes sorry for including you with Brad ,that was a mistake as he also makes the claim I cannot have a fish with Black or any other colour with pink eyes ! lol .
      well I have spent the last 12 years breeding it and needs more work but it doe's exist and so my breeding experiments will continue .

      And we shall have to disagree on that fact and the use of Akemi ki goi ! but I won't loose any sleep over it as my findings are a mutant fish have been born from it at my farm in Essex and
      when I have finished my work it will be posted about first on here on koiphen .

      But there is still work to do ,along with my other fish the Midowa goi is a reality .

    12. #52
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      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      Yes Bindi we do have good labs in the UK ! I have access to one of the best ! ,As for my breeding Akemi ki goi also involves Kujaku ,Kumonryu ,Beni kumonryu , Asagi ,Sanke Kohaku and Ki shusui ,and many other lines involving 28 Breeding sets ,and yes my experimentation in producing a '' Green Showa '' has involved UV-Light manipulation and Androgynous fish lines and Hormone treated fish as well over the past 25 years !.

      And yes sorry for including you with Brad ,that was a mistake as he also makes the claim I cannot have a fish with Black or any other colour with pink eyes ! lol .
      well I have spent the last 12 years breeding it and needs more work but it doe's exist and so my breeding experiments will continue .

      And we shall have to disagree on that fact and the use of Akemi ki goi ! but I won't loose any sleep over it as my findings are a mutant fish have been born from it at my farm in Essex and
      when I have finished my work it will be posted about first on here on koiphen .

      But there is still work to do ,along with my other fish the Midowa goi is a reality .
      Yes my findings are misguided and way off due to the recessive allies ! ,I should stick to breeding scaled to scaled and doitsu to doitsu ! lol !!! and my line will breed true !.
      and carry my colours forwards with the scaled line from head to first ray dorsal line on my ki shusui line ! ,but it will take a few years !lol !.

      And yes Akemi ki goi do give the impression of a pure fish produced ,but due to all the recessive genes floating about and mutant fish produced I may get something to work with !,and so my Quest goes' on !.

    13. #53
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      A question: Are koi diploid (two copies of each gene) or tetraploid (4 copies of each gene like goldfish, which makes all of this doubly difficult?) Since I am hoping to breed my koi this year, I am curious.

    14. #54
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      tetraploid, but according to lead researchers, functional diploid
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    15. #55
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Koi are functional diploids in that no tetrads assemble during meiosis. Koi are tetraploids as indicated by their double (2n +2n) chromosome number of 100, etc.

      http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

    16. #56
      Andrew Hoag is offline Member
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      This is a great thread and have learned a lot from it. I think I will try to spawn a Akemi Kigoi this spring. My Kigoi is a female about 30 or more inches long with a nice broad back. She is yellow with a white belly. I think she is probably from a kuhaku spawning, but I don't know this for sure.

      Wayne, you have been using a Male Kigoi and crossing it to regular females. My Kigoi is a female so I would be crossing her with regular males. How will using a female as a Kigoi going to effect the out come of this spawning? Will her broad back be inherited or will the genetics of the males take over?

      I probably will cross her with a Kuhaku or Sanke male. Any suggestions on what would work well with this girl?

      Comments from anyone would be appreciated!

      Thanks

    17. #57
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      Do you have a pic of the kigoi?
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    18. #58
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      No, sorry I don't have a picture of this Kigoi. I will see if I can get one, but it will be tough at this time of year.

    19. #59
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      Hi Andrew
      well you will get both genetics in the spawn as to how many well it all depends on how they all stack up and what is in each line and the main gene adding up to the most will affect the results so its all down to the line of the fish and what you cross it with ,and you have to remember the koi all roots go back to Asagi ,doro goi and magoi so its also just finding the best cross or back cross and first time spawns will tell you a lot ,1st how good is the hatch rate and any deformities you have if any ! .
      so its best to try first and see what you get as each pair will give you different results and are you going to line breed ,but we all have to have the first step in a new line of your own .
      So its possible to create what you want but it will take hard work ,time and dedication but its all possible !.
      As with my Ki Shusui line its taken 4 years to be where I want it to be and still the work goes' on as when breeding size will reduce and colours will improve so its not 100% but its getting there !.
      Look at it this way is try and try and try again as its all about having a good eye and getting good results and getting the fish you need to improve later down the line so its always good to have another line going as well so if you have a problem with one you have some back up later .
      As for body yes its good to have a good female for frame and good bone structure in breeding and its really good you have a good strong female to start ,its all down to finding the right males now and how the results look and making hard choices about how good a pairing is ,and at the end of the day good hard culling and selecting as you move forwards with your own line ,and that's all down to you ,you will have to be hard and this will give you plenty of room to grow on and keeping too many can be problematic and more risk of loss as water quality is the prime to get the best fish big quickly and determine how good they can be at a early stage and give you more room for a second line to help out later down the line .
      You can do this also with limited space by keeping the second line in cold water only and bringing them on later with heat and this can double your working water area .

    20. #60
      Koi Dreamer is offline Junior Member
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      So, if I understand correctly, if you breed two kohaku for example there still is no telling what you might get. You would probably get a small percentage of kohaku but, likely just 2 or 3%. Correct?..............................Bruce

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