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    Thread: What do you get out of two parent Koi?

    1. #21
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I have a male Kohaku that I can spawn with a female Akame kigoi. What do you think will happen?

      PLeeeeeeze do it, Roger! Pleeeeeeze. with a photo log before, during, and after.
      Inquiring minds are dying to know already.




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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      I have a male Kohaku that I can spawn with a female Akame kigoi. What do you think will happen?
      You should get some fry.

      What is produced depends on what genetics the parents carry.
      If the male Kohaku is line bred Kohaku and the Akame Kigoi genetics are also closely based on Kohaku genetics then you should get a reasonable % of red and white fry in the mix but will also get the usual higher numbers of muji's plus odd ones.
      (Remember that Kohaku x Kohaku only produces maximum 38% red and white fry in a spawn and less than 10% of these are kept at first cull)
      If the male Kohaku also carries a recessive n for inhibited melanin production you may also get a few Akame Kigoi.

      I believe that Akame Kigoi are single coloured fish, lack the pied gene, so that will also reduce the % of fry with dorsal orientated pattern and increase muji fry in the spawn.
      What appears to be a 2 coloured fish imo is due to the lack of melanin that normally produces the lighter bottom to darker top gradient in single coloured fish (wild type) for camouflage. They are single coloured fish.

      The further apart the parent fish are from the same genetics the more the diversity in the offspring. Meaning less of the fry will have the same phenotype as their parents and a higher % will be a genetic mix of the 2 (and whatever other unknown genetics they carry).

      Koi do not breed true.

      Let us know what you produce in your spawn as it will help to add to the info out there.
      Last edited by Bindi; 02-01-2014 at 10:02 PM.
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    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      You should get some fry.

      What is produced depends on what genetics the parents carry.
      If the male Kohaku is line bred Kohaku and the Akame Kigoi genetics are also closely based on Kohaku genetics then you should get a reasonable % of red and white fry in the mix but will also get the usual higher numbers of muji's plus odd ones.
      (Remember that Kohaku x Kohaku only produces maximum 38% red and white fry in a spawn and less than 10% of these are kept at first cull)
      If the male Kohaku also carries a recessive n for inhibited melanin production you may also get a few Akame Kigoi.

      I believe that Akame Kigoi are single coloured fish, lack the pied gene, so that will also reduce the % of fry with dorsal orientated pattern and increase muji fry in the spawn.
      What appears to be a 2 coloured fish imo is due to the lack of melanin that normally produces the lighter bottom to darker top gradient in single coloured fish (wild type) for camouflage. They are single coloured fish.

      The further apart the parent fish are from the same genetics the more the diversity in the offspring. Meaning less of the fry will have the same phenotype as their parents and a higher % will be a genetic mix of the 2 (and whatever other unknown genetics they carry).

      Koi do not breed true.

      Let us know what you produce in your spawn as it will help to add to the info out there.
      Hi Brad also said you can't get yellow on white with red eye's ,well sorry to say there is such a fish in Japan and has been bred ,and also a fact that can be backed up ,advancements have been made and yes ''copy '' I mean ''copy'' but Akemi ki goi are not 100% in this process ,the only way this can be done is the use of UV -Light .
      Akemi ki goi has been used in Japan for this purpose since 1930 and is still used today as a way of copying the ''Mother fish gene's '' whilst not a 100% copy ! its near 85% with pure lines ,also a pure bred Akemi ki goi is really a two coloured fish having a lemon yellow top half and a pure white belly and yellow fin's with yellow moto at the base of all fin's .
      And is bred from White Asagi and Kohaku blood ,and there are many forms produced and from many breeders and many other combinations like Kin Matsuba x kin Matsuba and also Hariwake x Hariwake as well today on the world market these later ones tend to be all yellow and don't have pink eyes but almost black eyes ,but on close inspection with a torch will show up Dark blood red !.

      Having the right type makes a big difference in the percentage copied genes ,and also a fact Using a female Tancho Kohaku will have the Higher amount of genes to be copied but also her line going way back in her gene pool so whilst patterns would be kept on top many patterns of Hi would be produced as well as a few extra Tancho ! .

      But there is a better way and that's in breeding Male Kohaku to female Akemi ki goi and then back crossing the Female fry produced to Tancho males unrelated .

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post

      What appears to be a 2 coloured fish imo is due to the lack of melanin that normally produces the lighter bottom to darker top gradient in single coloured fish (wild type) for camouflage. They are single coloured fish.
      As you say, yellow albino koi are a graduation of colour for the very reason, no melanin. This is not two colour pattern koi
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    5. #25
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      wayne1

      Simplest way to end the debate is for you to point us all in the direction of what you are saying. You say it can be backed up, so provide the evidence.
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    6. #26
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      Ki Jiro Akemi ki goi x white matt shusui, from midori goi backcross to shusui ,and you can also get white and yellow shusui from Akemi ki goi x with shusui ! I have done all these crosses and back crosses ,and also white and yellow have appeared in Koh yoh and Akemi ki goi Doitsu spawns !.

      And all fry have red eyes for 8-12 months then turn black but 10-15% stay red or pink and deep blood red also !.that's my findings as a breeder of 39 year's which is based on experience that I have actually done here in the uk on a farm set up in Essex and here in Wales .
      And also Karashi goi also have turned out with yellow patches and red eyes in a small percentage of fry as well and are a Akemi ki goi cross to Chagoi ,also experiments on Ki Shusui with Akemi ki goi have produced a white shusui with red eyes as well and a nice yellow on white pattern around 1% .
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    7. #27
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      Wayne, re: the photos above, they have been shown before, i think in junichi's only one thread and called kyoh yoh.
      are you saying these are akame ki goi?




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      The only thing I understood there was 'koh yoh'... which is, of course Kihaku lol

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    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      The only thing I understood there was 'koh yoh'... which is, of course Kihaku lol

      "sunshine in water
      blue streak on the ridge
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      raise the flag.
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      Last edited by Koigrl; 02-03-2014 at 05:06 PM.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




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    10. #30
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      Wayne from memory Brad said that that there can be no such thing as a red eyed midoriogoi (albino midorigoi). That I agree with.
      Green is due to melanin (sumi) and albino genetically inhibit melanin (cannot produce it)
      If they have dark eyes then they are not albino. If they develop dark eyes as they age then they are not albino. It may be some form of leucism where all pigment is reduced due to a defect in the pigment cell, so a modifying gene. And that modifying gene can switch on and off. The gene for albinism cannot.

      Leucism is also the gene for pied. The yellow and white fish you mention are Leucistic not albino. Pied with modified pigment.

      As far as copying 85% of a parent fish by using and albino partner then this makes no sense. Albino is due to a double recessive pairing for inhibited melanin on one loci only nn.
      This does not stop that particular fish from passing on any dominant genes in any other loci that will pair up with the other parents recessive genes in that loci.
      As you know line breeding reduces the combination of genes but adding an albino, even if from the same line, will not give you and an 85% copy of offspring in a spawn of 1 parent only let alone a full copy of a single fish. It is impossible.

      In line bred Kohaku, which is the most refined variety, the best % for red and white offspring in a spawn is around 38% and these are just fish that are red and white. This has nothing to do with pattern location or traits, just that they have some red over a white base.

      The use of UV in attempts to "copy" a female is a process called Parthenogenesis. This process is only used on male sperm and kills the sperms DNA so that it cannot contribute genetically to the embryo but leaves the sperm intact and able to activate the eggs.
      This process produces a Haploid offspring (less chromosomes, Carp/Koi are Diploid).
      Haploid offspring are not copies of the female as expected. They have less chromosomes and come with what is called a characteristic syndrome. This syndrome produces offspring that are shorter and thicker and they have numerous brain, heart, organ and circulatory deformities and do not live past 5 days post hatch.

      Wayne, I respect your experience with breeding and raising fry but your use of the word "copy" and stating that you can successfully produce 85% fry in a spawn that are copies of a parent fish by using an Akame Kigoi does not gel with all the scientific research and documentation that has been done in this area. Imho.

      If you could copy a parent fish by this method then why do Japanese breeders still have to cull over 80% of their line bred Kohaku offspring at first cull?
      Why are there still such low numbers of show patterned fish in each spawn?
      Why are there such low numbers of fish produced each year that have the potential to be Grand Champions?
      Why do we not see an Akame Kigoi Oyagoi in a main Gosanke parent sets from the top breeders?
      If they can be copied so easily then why is there no scientific, or at the least Japanese breeder documentation, to that effect?
      Last edited by Bindi; 02-04-2014 at 10:28 AM.
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    11. #31
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      wayne1

      Those photos show koi with black eyes. Evidence of a yellow and white patterned koi with red eyes is required. Further, can you refer us to something that will support all the other claims you make?
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      Wayne from memory Brad said that that there can be no such thing as a red eyed midoriogoi (albino midorigoi). That I agree with.
      Green is due to melanin (sumi) and albino genetically inhibit melanin (cannot produce it)
      Yeppo
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    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
      Yeppo
      Hi Guys and Girls
      Well yes these fish have been around a fair time ! and Yes a few years back !,Max well to call these Akemi ki goi is wrong ! as they are clearly not that ! but these types are bred from a cross of Akemi ki goi and yes Brad the ones in the photo have Black eyes ,but when bred they do produce around 10-15% with red eyes ,or Pink to look at in the flesh in real life !.

      As for the fact Akemi ki goi are a Albino form of Snow white Asagi X Kohaku to produce a yellow topped koi with white belly from the lateral line ! so in reality a two coloured fish yellow lemon and pure white ,with pink eyes .

      In my early days of spawning Goldfish we got on our farm in 1979 goldfish with Transparent Iris ! these were scales less and orange with white in colour ! I was told then also this was not possible and the fry would be blind ! ,but on close inspection the eye moved round and you could see the black back of the eye move round as the fish moved its eye round to see !,so they could see perfectly well !,I was told any breeders got these and were culled as a defective fish !.

      So two year's ago , I crossed Midori goi with Akemi ki goi Gin rin form Otsuka these did have blood red eyes and not pink ! and were black to look at ! but if you put a torch beam in the eye they showed red ,blood red ,this is Otsuka type of Akemi ki goi .

      So the resultant fry were Green and 10% did have red eyes ! the rest turned black at 12 months old ! ,they were also a nice Green wasabi Gin Rin and did sparkle well in the sun ! .
      also over the last 15years I have experimented with Showa and Akemi ki goi to produce a green showa which I must say last year looked very similar to my green midori goi gin rin's as the red still only shows as yellow as yet but I will continue to try and improve the hi on this fish ,this year !.

      So Yes I'm open to criticism here and I'm not a Pro breeder like Brad or Bindi and knowledge on genes etc ,so yes I have no knowledge of that part of the hobby ,I just experiment and breed different combo's and just for fun see what turns up !.

      So no disrespect to Brad or Bindi here ,in my 39 years of breeding doe's not make me right ,but I have had green fish with pink eyes !,and yellow ,white fish with pink eye's ,and yes most have reverted back to black eye's ,so my knowledge is limited here !,but pink eyed ones were produced ,so these may be weaker we will see as the grow out if they make it through winter .

      A Japanese Breeder ,friend and has been for some years now has and still uses Akemi ki goi in his breeding ,and his father before him and has seen good progress with its use in breeding and since 1930 was one of the first to use its advantages in koi production and improvement ,and has seen a vast change !.

      And I have since using this fish in the early 90's in my own breeding projects have seen fantastic results and some of the best fry produced as it certainly improves production ,skin quality is the first thing you notice and strong frame and good colour .

    14. #34
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      Wayne, thank you for continuing the discussion!
      I am not a Pro breeder. I am a hobbyist breeder and do not breed with the intention to sell. I breed to improve my stocks and along the way try to put my stamp on them with the traits I covet. It's a never ending learning curve.

      We are all learning here matey. My questions to you primarily revolve around your claim that you can produce 85% offspring in a spawn that are a copy of one of the parent koi by using Akame Kigoi.

      I am not here to show you any disrespect, and as I've already said, I do respect you for your experience, and knowledge, in breeding, and fry raising, that you generously pass on, but, I have to question your claim about copying.

      Can you address this subject in as precise a manner as you can please, or point me in a direction where I can read some documentation/scientific research on the subject? Links, books, papers etc.

      Cheers
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    15. #35
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      Hi Bindi
      I like you just have time on my hands to do what we like and experiment and breed koi and as you have quite rightly stated we learn every day !,and I'm only giving my experiences from my breeding koi ,
      here at home in the Uk ,now I may be doing it my way and may be wrong on my understanding of Gene knowledge and I must state a limited knowledge ,I have never studded this side of the hobby at collage and only done basic stuff for fish farming on a passed down to me from my family members who have run fish farms here in the uk ,and a old member of staff from Poland who had a better understanding and vast knowledge of genetics and how to best use them .

      I have used Akemi ki goi to '' copy '' a mother parent koi to around 85% ,and to good advantage and this can help recreate a lost line as well ,as I did this back in 2006 with a Asagi ! as I had only one left from a Mink attack on a pond ,this method worked well and 85% were all Asagi 10% black eyed ki goi ,and 4% Asagi with red eyes and 1% Akemi ki goi ! ,now I believe blue is black under the skin right so you and Brad tell me that's impossible but it happened !.
      And on many occasions I have had other none yellow fish appear from Akemi ki goi crosses in my breeding projects ! mainly showa and sanke and shusui ,also I have produced white shusui and shiro muji with pink eyes by crossing Akemi ki goi with Hi shusui in 2007 ,in fact I did show these at the Margame show 2007 BKKS and judges were taken by surprise as the only recognition that pink eyed shiro muji existed was Peter Waddington's book when he came across one specimen in Japan ! ,he has only ever seen one ! ,well I had one size two in a Uk show that I had bred myself which is fact !.

      So what am trying to say these fish can turn up anywhere and ''Mutant '' fish do Exist right around the world ! and that's how koi keeping stared right in the first place !.

      And yes Sanke supposedly a un -fixable type of koi has been fixed by 85% ! .
      All with the Akemi ki goi the real holy grail of koi breeding !.,
      So many things change and yes claims are made ,and yes I don't have any papers on that only experience after 39 years of koi breeding and results before my eyes that's what I go on practical knowledge and I'm not out for glory or anything else just the simple life and am not the fighting kind ! and could not care less about recognition I have no axe to grind and that's it really I don't care ,I will experiment and get results with my fish lines I have built with this knowledge !.

      Try Akemi ki goi in your breeding you may well be surprised at the results you get !.

    16. #36
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      Thank you!
      Being that your Akame Kigoi probably had Shusui (Asagi) genetics I do not question the 85% outcome of Asagi offspring in your Asagi spawn. The Akame Kigoi could only pass on 1 recessive (n) gene for albinism in one loci to the offspring so most were Asagi. The few that were Kigoi can also be an expected outcome as there is some evidence that Akame Kigoi also may carry the dilute gene for leucism, and the 1 Akame Kigoi offspring was no real big surprise if you think about it ( this 1 Akame Kigoi offspring just proves that the Asagi female already carried 1 recessive gene for albinism).

      You were not copying the one parent Wayne, in this instance the genetics for Asagi more than likely came from both parents and proved it. The Akame Kigoi only passed on 1 of its recessive genes for albinism to a high % of the spawn and that negates the inhibition of melanin production so therefore the Asagi phenotype was dominant in this spawn.

      Now I would like to know: Do you have photos of your Asagi offspring that have red eyes, please?

      Producing all non yellow fish in a spawn from one Akame Kigoi parent is also not unusual. It all depends on what other genetics the Akame Kigoi carries and what genes are passed on and if they are dominant or recessive for each trait and how they pair with the other parents genes and combine to form the distinct genetic code of the fry.

      I'll have to get into a discussion with you about Sanke being fixed by 85% next!
      All the same questions will apply.
      Last edited by Bindi; 02-04-2014 at 10:05 AM.
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    17. #37
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      Thank heavens getting on same page and under the mystery of akame ki copy machine.






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    18. #38
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      If you could remove 1 of the recessive genes for albinism from an Akame Kigoi what variety would it be?
      You cannot go by phenotype of Akame Kigoi to predict what genes it carries other than the double recessive for albinism or Doitsu/Wagoi for dominant scale type.
      They give the illusion of being a "pure" fish but just by looking at them you do not know what lays beneath.
      If you are breeding then you have to have a good idea of their genetic makeup just the same as any other variety that you want to breed from for the best outcome.
      Last edited by Bindi; 02-04-2014 at 10:36 AM.
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    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      If you could remove 1 of the recessive genes for albinism from an Akame Kigoi what variety would it be?
      You cannot go by phenotype of Akame Kigoi to predict what genes it carries other than the double recessive for albinism or Doitsu/Wagoi for dominant scale type.
      They give the illusion of being a "pure" fish but just by looking at them you do not know what lays beneath.
      If you are breeding then you have to have a good idea of their genetic makeup just the same as any other variety that you want to breed from for the best outcome.
      Hi Bindi
      Well all I know is that what ever Mother fish I put with my Akemi ki goi males it works very well indeed and produces the best fry this way ,less culls and a big percentage of what am breeding ,be it Sanke ,Shusui ,Kokaku ,Asagi, Kumonryu, Showa, in fact any type I use it with ,the skin lustre is better the shape ,body seems better to look at and this must be down to skin quality as well , but the overall appearance is top notch its no illusion !.
      But like you say they won't show what lays beneath ! like any other koi so until you use them you won't know what's produced !,I have seen many Akemi ki goi and ones with orange patches and as Davo calls it Ki bleed I have seen this also in my Ki shusui in certain months only to completely disappear and Ki Strengthen to a full buttery yellow golden colour when grown out to 2 year olds !.

      And yes I have used Scaled Akemi ki goi x Hi Shusui ,this brings out Asagi ,hi Asagi ,snow Asagi ,white shusui with red eyes ,Shiro muji red eyes ,and some doro- muddy doitsu , Ki goi (black eyed ) and some Akemi ki goi also but very few !,and the odd beni goi also with red eyes ,yes red fish with red eyes !.

      First time was back in may of 2006 ,most of my lines now include Akemi ki goi genes and become part of my line as it improves skin and sheen to koi ,also I have a Gin Rin Akemi ki goi and this brings in Gin Rin to any fish I add it to ,not 100% but near 50 - 60 ~% are gin rin Fry .
      So a Akemi ki goi will carry extra Genes you want to incorporate into a line and you can see this ,and it works very well ,Also if you want to make a line metallic you just keep adding Akemi ki goi and you will end up with metallic fish , if that's what you want !.

      Over the last 25 years I have Used it with Sanke and the transformation has been very good and we now get 85% rather than 25% sanke fry and the rest made up of Kohaku and bekko !, so for better production ,this year also I will be Experimenting with a new Hybrid and we will see if this works better ,the brood fish are High Quality and cost 35,000 each from Japan ,my friend lives in France and we will see if we can produce some nice sanke with his Akemi ki goi as well .

      Also another friend in wales has high end Sanke from another breeder and the new white Magoi hybrid from Japan ,these also look very good and I will try and breed these also and use my methods learnt over many years from polish breeders and Dutch and we will see what I produce .

      So all I know is my fry look ten times better using Akemi ki goi with only one spawn and I can create Gin rin also in one move ,which saves time and effort and the whole spawn has more keepers for sure ,so I have a right combination of fish carrying the genes I need ,so I stick with these as the results are brilliant !.

      What I have noticed is all the best producing females that have been crossed with Akemi ki goi ,all have rich golden brown eggs ,not the dull grey green egg colour as in every day koi pond keepers as I call them !,the golden egg layers produce the best fish ,hatch rates are better also ,so I will also stick with that as well as it seems to work for me and yes Akemi ki goi are from Asagi and Kohaku ,but many other types are bred and I believe the lemon toped ones with white belly's are the best in breeding and that's from practical experience of 39 years of breeding koi,
      the other more honey coloured are not so good .

      thanks for the info on Akemi ki goi ,what ever it is Carrying in my ones its working for me !.

    20. #40
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      Hi Wayne,
      Yes, we each breed for the traits we want and if the parent fish have the skin quality, body shape, growth potential etc that you want then you increase the odds of producing some with these traits.
      I never said that Akame Kigoi would not bring good skin to their offspring. If they have good skin then that trait will be passed on to some of the fry.
      My discussion here was primarily about your use of the word copy and your much stated "fact" that by using an Akame Kigoi with any other variety parent fish that you can COPY the non Akame Kigoi parent koi in 85% of the offspring from that spawn.
      Hopefully I've helped you to see that it is impossible as whatever other genetics that the Akame Kigoi carries will also be passed on to the fry in the 50/50 male/female chromosome pairing from each parent.
      You have to take into account the base variety (complete genetic make-up) of the Akame Kigoi. The double recessive gene for albinism hides most of these but does not mean that these variety traits will not be passed onto the offspring.

      Thanks for the civilised debate.
      Last edited by Bindi; 02-06-2014 at 01:52 AM.
      Bindi
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      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


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