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Thread: What do you get out of two parent Koi?

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    Koi Man is offline
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    Question What do you get out of two parent Koi?

    Well this is pretty much my first post;in addition, my first question.
    I've done a lot of research on koi and own couple of koi myself.
    (Kohaku 10" with a beni on the head "lip to pectoral fins and a hi dot on the border line between the end of the body and the caudal fin," showa 4-5", but without equally distributed lines and a beni on the side head surrounding the eye, a sanke 3-4", kohaku 4-5" unique pattern, and a doitsu kohaku which has a non-se-metrical square between the eyes not even passing the pectoral fins and stops at the nostrils, but with "hi" lipstick on the lip, and a dim circle that is transparent on much of the body side and introducing a bit into the Dorsal fin.) I will eventually post pictures of my fish.
    "Now let's get to the point"
    I've been wondering if the same concept about breeding two kohaku which has a better chance of getting a tancho can also go with other koi varieties? Basically my question is, do you have a better chance of of getting quality offspring by breeding two quality parents rather than breeding two non-quality parents with quality bloodlines?
    Last edited by Koi Man; 12-23-2013 at 08:11 AM.

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    Thumbs up

    Yes you do have a much better chance of producing some quality offspring if you use quality parents.
    Non quality koi even from good bloodlines are culls.
    You cannot breed for pattern, by this I mean pattern traits are inherited but exact pattern placement rarely is. You cull for pattern. Breeders create the look of their stock by generational culling to a standard of the traits they want. This look is certainly not just about pattern but is about wanted traits like body shape, skin quality, Shiro, Hi, Sumi, pattern elements ( Kiwa/Sashi/sumi type etc)
    Yes there has been some work done on increasing Tancho offspring in a Kohaku spawn and the numbers have increased a little with certain parent sets ( Tancho) but the % of Tancho offspring in the whole spawn is still quite small. Koi do not breed true.
    Last edited by Bindi; 12-29-2013 at 07:34 AM.
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    I have a genetic theory that needs to be confirmed: A male Tancho paired with a recessive gene such as a female Akame (red eye) Kigoi should produce some Tancho. Another genetic theory that needs to be confirmed: A female Tancho offspring from that pair bred back to the Tancho male parent should increase the number of Tancho. Furthermore, pairing the third generation with the second should further increase the number of Tanchos. Then on and on until a pure Tancho line is established.
    Last edited by Roger; 12-31-2013 at 03:25 AM.

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    Another theory that I have: Pairing a Dainichi Marin/kagura male with a female Dainichi Rikidosan/kagura kohaku should bring back the kagura line. Then mating the kagura sibling back to each parent should reset or bring back the Marin and Rikidosan blood line.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    I have a genetic theory that needs to be confirmed: A male Tancho paired with a recessive gene such as a female Akame (red eye) Kigoi should produce some Tancho. Another genetic theory that needs to be confirmed: A female Tancho offspring from that pair bred back to the Tancho male parent should increase the number of Tancho. Furthermore, pairing the third generation with the second should further increase the number of Tanchos. Then on and on until a pure Tancho line is established.
    A Tancho x Tancho spawn may give you some Tancho.
    How does adding double recessive genetics (nn) for inhibited melanin production improve the % of Tancho fry considering that only 1 of the recessive genes may be passed on only in this loci to the first generation offspring and that recessive gene only inhibits the production of melanin in its paired nn state? What does the addition of a gene that only inhibits melanin production in its paired recessive state bring to a spawn that will increase the % of Tancho patterned fry in the spawn? What does this gene have to do with specific location, or an increase in % of fry with Tancho head pattern?
    Last edited by Bindi; 12-31-2013 at 06:34 PM.
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    don't take this the wrong way KoiMan, with your largest fish being 10", I would believe you have plenty of time for your education in this matter...for your best results, you are going to want large oyagoi-18ish" and all the way to 36+ inches for the fry to have their best chance of survival to the culling point of their life...anytime you weaken/strengthen a bloodline with outcrosses for particular characteristics..that is exactly what you are doing, either or, and until you learn about the punnet square and allele combinations, it is all a crap shoot on the color, body shape and pattern combinations...welcome to KOIPHEN and best of luck with your fish...Billy
    Quote Originally Posted by Koi Man View Post
    Well this is pretty much my first post;in addition, my first question.
    I've done a lot of research on koi and own couple of koi myself.
    (Kohaku 10" with a beni on the head "lip to pectoral fins and a hi dot on the border line between the end of the body and the caudal fin," showa 4-5", but without equally distributed lines and a beni on the side head surrounding the eye, a sanke 3-4", kohaku 4-5" unique pattern, and a doitsu kohaku which has a non-se-metrical square between the eyes not even passing the pectoral fins and stops at the nostrils, but with "hi" lipstick on the lip, and a dim circle that is transparent on much of the body side and introducing a bit into the Dorsal fin.) I will eventually post pictures of my fish.
    "Now let's get to the point"
    I've been wondering if the same concept about breeding two kohaku which has a better chance of getting a tancho can also go with other koi varieties? Basically my question is, do you have a better chance of of getting quality offspring by breeding two quality parents rather than breeding two non-quality parents with quality bloodlines?

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    Bindi, I think Wayne1 might have proven the first part of replicating the Tancho with the akame kigoi. I did not do any experiments yet, but he started me thinking along that line.

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    I don't profess to really know much about breeding with regard to necessary genetics, and all the other stuff you guys are talking about, but I do know that there are breeders in Japan that are getting very high yields of Tancho stocks. I know of one breeder, who had been doing this who decided to retire and sell off his fish stocks and close the farm. A local dealer here purchased EVERYTHING he had and told me there was nothing but 100% Tancho Kohaku. I have also seen a couple other breeders who had/are breeding for nothing but Tancho and had TONS of them available over the last 7-8 years. So, even though I'm sure there was quite a bit of serious culling going on, the high percentage yield of "tancho only" is quite relevant, at least in Japan.
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    I remember reading Brady discussing Tancho on a few occasions over on Bito.
    The numbers of Tancho produced in a Kohaku spawn was somewhere around less than 2%.
    I think he suggested that out of 100,000 fry from a spawn you MAY get 40 Tancho but of these 40 Tancho only 2 or 3 will have the quality and Beni stability needed to remain Tancho past Nisai.
    I've also read that Maruju is selectively breeding for Tancho and is getting a slightly better % in one of his parent sets. I think the figure I read was more like 4% in this particular set.
    I think Gomelsky's research put red & white fry (patterned) from a Kohaku spawn at around 38% of the total spawn with the rest being 17% Aka Muji and 45% Shiro Muji. The 38% of red & white fry was just the % of fry displaying red somewhere and had nothing to do with pattern type/location. Less than 10% of these are kept after the first cull. Of those 10% maybe 2% are Tancho so Maruju's work is impressive if he has increased the number to 4% up to this point but I am not sure that TONS of them is an accurate description.
    Bindi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
    A Tancho x Tancho spawn may give you some Tancho.
    How does adding double recessive genetics (nn) for inhibited melanin production improve the % of Tancho fry considering that only 1 of the recessive genes may be passed on only in this loci to the first generation offspring and that recessive gene only inhibits the production of melanin in its paired nn state? What does the addition of a gene that only inhibits melanin production in its paired recessive state bring to a spawn that will increase the % of Tancho patterned fry in the spawn? What does this gene have to do with specific location, or an increase in % of fry with Tancho head pattern?
    Anyone up for discussing this?
    Bindi
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    A few basics;

    # Breeders have been able to selectively breed for the increased production of pattern types or pattern locations. You will find selected parent sets are able to produce a greater number of desired patterns today, compared to several generations ago. For example, it has been possible to reduce the amount of tejima in sanke.

    # Some pattern types are linked. For example, motoguro (black sumi knuckles) in showa, utsurimono, matsukawabake).

    # Some pattern types are influenced by modifying genes. These modifying genes change the way genes are expressed. In kumonryu, the coming and going of sumi and shiro is due to how the modifying genes are affected by the environment.

    # Colour expression is influenced by the environment & food. for example red pigment can be reduced by excluding light. Feeding caroteniods and other colour enhancing chemicals affect reds.

    # Pied gene expression (of which Tancho is an example of) is subject to variable expressivity. The degree of expression of the pied gene is a major contributor to how much colour expression occurs.

    # It is possible within a line breeding (selective breeding) program, to select for a degree of gene expression. It is also possible to select for locations where genes are expressed. These are at a macro level. But, the outcome results in a change in the gene penetrance within the population. The results of 2% tancho within a line that is increased to 4% is an example where the breeder has selected for that change in penetrance.

    # All results in koi breeding a skewed by the survival rate and culling goals.
    Last edited by mrbradleybradley; 01-10-2014 at 03:02 AM.
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    Albino, genes are about sumi production, namely, the absence of the enzymes that would normally produce melanin. Albino does not appear to be expressed or linked or associated with the pied gene or any other pattern types. If it were, you would see koi that have pattern (for example, yellow pattern on white) with red eyes. Therefore, the likely affect of an albino to influence the increased penetrance or expressivity of a tancho location is going to be nothing.

    As a side note, in other organisms, albino is sometimes linked to other issues that affect the health of those animals. The rarity if shiro albino may well allow someone to put forward the theory that albino has negative health affects, at least in some gene combinations.
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    We welcome the enthusiasm of the newbie.

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    Awesome! Great to get some discussion on this to help my learning curve!


    Rob can you give your comments on what Albino genetics may bring to a spawn if purposely breeding for increased Tancho pattern?
    Bindi
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    Bindi, I would not expect that albino genetics would contribute to tancho creation. To get tancho kohakus a kohaku x kohaku is in order. Kohakus are not albinos, they just don’t express melanin in their skin. So I don’t see the value of blocking melanin expression elsewhere (like in the eye or gut).

    Here is a paper that includes the best description of fish skin basics that I have seen (read it over and over). The Zebrafish genetics stuff is interesting but for our purposes of less use than the excellent introduction. There is one sentence in this paper that is intriguing regarding tancho and might actually provide insight into tancho pattern formation. The color cells of the tancho spot reside in the dermis and “The dermis derives from the paraxial mesoderm (dermatome region), except for the head region, where it derives from the (ecto)mesenchyme of neural crest origin”.

    http://www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/paper.php?doi=15272388

    Rob

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    Thanks!
    I'll read it and get back to you.
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    whilst you would copy Kohaku genes with a female Kohaku x with a male Akemi ki goi spawning ,few Tancho genes would be copied
    and the patterns would stay on top better few would be produced ,and you would get a full range of Kohaku patterns still and the common beni goi and shiro muji and 99% will have all red eyes
    at 8-12 months of age these will turn back to black and less than 15% would stay red .
    But you will produce as well = Shiro Akemi Goi - a white version red eyed shiro muji fish and also red -beni goi with red eyes ,and some brown fish with red eyes but the brown flesh coloured ones don't always turn up rare mutant form ! !.
    these are the rare mutants of the spawn and only turn up in large spawns .
    Tancho Sanke with Akemi ki goi is a better result for Tancho Kohaku to be produced in bigger numbers and of course you would also have a stronger red appear and more chance ,Sanke and Kohaku are more intertwined than we first thought ,and I can confirm from breeding Sanke for over 25 years this is the case if you want to produce quality Tancho Kohaku ,so would conclude that sanke is a better way to get the pied gene to come out ! to produce Tancho ,Kohaku and sanke at the same time !.
    Also the fact that Akemi ki goi has its root genes in Kohaku and Asagi these back crosses can have advantages if used with the right fish with the right gene set , and this will only be evident on spawning showing what they carry or don't , its never easy ! ,and needs plenty of work to get where you want and produce the fish your looking for ! but akemi ki goi will never reproduce or copy a 100% and will only copy the dominant gene in that set ,so for Kohaku usually carry sanke genes , this is the case also with Tancho as its genes are more complicated than this and hidden deeper so its just having the right fish and this is a million in one or may be a billion to one chance and a bit of luck thrown in as well !.
    so yes its like a crap shoot really for colour patterns and Tancho especially !.
    but when I doe's happen you keep the breeding combo !.

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    Bindi's Avatar
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    Sorry Wayne. I still don't understand your use of the word "copy".
    Are you saying that Akemi Kigoi carry all recessive genes in all loci for all traits and that the Kohaku females dominant genes that she may carry for each trait results in a high % of the offspring as "copy's" of the female parent?

    Are Akame Kigoi single coloured or 2 coloured fish?
    Do they have the pied gene?
    Do they have the modifying spreading white gene?
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    Are you saying that Akemi Kigoi carry all recessive genes in all loci for all traits

    Exactly - and so the arguement continues

    Albino is the absence of the ability to make melanin & there is no evidence, that all other traits are associated, linked or in any way connected, so an albino is unable to influence the entire outcome and hence holds no special value in creating a base line.
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    New experiment

    I have a male Kohaku that I can spawn with a female Akame kigoi. What do you think will happen?


    Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
    Are you saying that Akemi Kigoi carry all recessive genes in all loci for all traits

    Exactly - and so the arguement continues

    Albino is the absence of the ability to make melanin & there is no evidence, that all other traits are associated, linked or in any way connected, so an albino is unable to influence the entire outcome and hence holds no special value in creating a base line.

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