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Thread: high quality genetically small koi

  1. #21
    inazuma28 is offline
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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbone View Post
    Ill have to view this at home... my work firewall forbids this lol

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    It's a quick video, hard to see, but there are some tiny fish near much larger ones. They refer to them as "bonsai koi".

    It seems that there are many "mini" koi shows in Asia that feature these small koi. I don't know if they are grown small (bonsai) or just young. Curious to hear the experts' opinions on that.
    -Brian

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    Amongst every batch of offspring there are variations in size from "tobies" that outgrown their siblings, are usually males and can be canabalistic, the medium size (usually the best of the batch quality wise) and the genetically disposed "midgets". There will deformities among all these groups that should be culled as early as possible to allow more room for the remaining group to grow/improve. The tobies should be separated out early as well.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbone View Post
    It's a quick video, hard to see, but there are some tiny fish near much larger ones. They refer to them as "bonsai koi".

    It seems that there are many "mini" koi shows in Asia that feature these small koi. I don't know if they are grown small (bonsai) or just young. Curious to hear the experts' opinions on that.
    Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
    Actually, there are some breeders who will keep fish that don't grow large IF they are very high quality. There is a serious market in Japan for them as I stated before, many hobbyists there do not have much space for larger ponds and choose to keep koi in very small quarters. Do you actually think that all the small fish in the All Japan Show are tosai/small Nisai? They are not.

    It is true, not all koi will grow large, some/many that are exported are not going to get to jumbo proportions. They actually will stay smaller, usually less than 20-24", especially the males.

    There is no secret as to what to feed to keep them small, it's the environment provided and the AMOUNT of food that can help determine growth in many cases.
    See my previous post above.
    Mike

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  5. #25
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    Hello, You might want to look into some Koi from Suzujyu. Kodama sells these Koi on his site. According to Kodama's Koishi book Suzujyu Koi seem to stay smaller than many other breeders lines but he is known for his quality of Koi. I have 3 fish from him and they seem to be staying much smaller than the others kept in the same pond. Just a thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Top Koi View Post
    Hello, You might want to look into some Koi from Suzujyu. Kodama sells these Koi on his site. According to Kodama's Koishi book Suzujyu Koi seem to stay smaller than many other breeders lines but he is known for his quality of Koi. I have 3 fish from him and they seem to be staying much smaller than the others kept in the same pond. Just a thought.
    Hello,

    Thank you very much for this! I have been looking at Kodama, and own 4 of their fish already. I will look at this specific breeder.
    -Brian

  7. #27
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    I am thinking that I will only want smaller koi as well. Since most people seem to want jumbo, these will be cheaper (in general,) and even if I should decide to show koi in the future, do I REALLY want to muscle a 36 inch fish to a show? I think not. And will I want to move a fish that size down to the barn for the winter? NOT!! I Will be VERY happy if my fish stop growing about 18"-20".

  8. #28
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    Hi Well as a fish breeder for 39 years the best way is to cool the water to produce small fish ! ,below 60f koi fry feed less and by doing this you slow the growth down and you can handle more fry in a large spawn or several spawns .
    I do this with every spawn and 50% are in heated tanks and vats and the other 50% are raised in cold water ponds outside .
    this slows them down but helps quickly develop colour in green water ponds .
    Having said that you will get three sizes -Large -medium and -runts -( tiny koi ) and the more you inbreed past F5 the more you will get ,back in the 1960's and 1970's Dr Axelrod had a Florida fish farm and bred miniature koi at 5 inches' these had long barbells and long fins but when bred they reverted back to normal size koi !.
    Because they carried all the gene's of there original parent stock ,in every spawn you will get even small fish that are tiny that carry large gene's ,and as you inbreed colours get better but size in the spawn will reduce .
    Introducing new unrelated stock is important to keep size once you have got the colour right and so back crossing and out cross keeps what they call '' HYBRID VIGOUR '' and helps produce strong koi ,as inbreeding will also produce many deformities for Example '' SHOWA '' breeding is one type that is the most inbred form of koi so putting back ''Magoi '' is very important and keeping size some breeders have used new types and old types to get round this and a few years ago the introduction of a new form was a big headline in koi keeping world with the new White Magoi from Yagengi ,many breeders try new things and I use Akemi Ki goi and Asagi white forms that can get to over a meter in size but with out caring black (sumi) like using ''Magoi '' which you then have to cull out so taking longer for the result you want ,so using the right fish for the job makes all the difference .
    I have had Shusui 1-2 and 3 inches long at 11years of age and 24''inch all from the same spawn so genetics of a spawn even from jumbo koi won't produce 100% jumbo fish they have a mix of all but the more its inbred brother to sister the spawns get smaller sizes as you go on to f7 so its important to add new stock as you go .

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    Quote Originally Posted by beanbone View Post
    this is not what i meant. I want to see a bonsai koi with a large shoulder- picture an ALL Japan Grand champ, scaled down with the same imposing look- The fish in the video have good conformation but not the "look" of an jumbo koi.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by inazuma28 View Post
    this is not what i meant. I want to see a bonsai koi with a large shoulder- picture an ALL Japan Grand champ, scaled down with the same imposing look- The fish in the video have good conformation but not the "look" of an jumbo koi.
    I've seen Hiroi/Marusei males with large shoulders however without the length, they won't ever be imposing...maybe a step above cute, but not imposing
    -Rain

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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
    I've seen Hiroi/Marusei males with large shoulders however without the length, they won't ever be imposing...maybe a step above cute, but not imposing
    You can get this by adding more Doitsu to the line ,also you get hyback koi in a spawn ! just a few !,its what breeders do to get better body and skin quality also.

  12. #32
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    Get yourself some nice Wakin. They're as nice as any Kohaku........provided someone is still breeding(or providing) them there. Sandy maybe ?
    I used to have some nice ones......
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
    I've seen Hiroi/Marusei males with large shoulders however without the length, they won't ever be imposing...maybe a step above cute, but not imposing
    "A step above cute, but not imposing..." I like that line.
    DAN







  14. #34
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    Genetics, says it all. The video is a seven week old fry from Sekiguchi Showas and maybe a shiro utsuri male. They are all in the same tank get the same food, the same water, but they aren't all the same size. The Tobies have been removed which are bigger still! The only difference is genetic? Interestingly some of the smaller koi have better patterns! Also these smaller koi will stay smaller and grow slower regardless of the food you throw at them. My advice would be to find someone who has fry and ask for some of there cullings and then pick out what you like to keep. As most breeders are looking to keep the biggest and fastest growers which would leave you with plenty of choice.

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    Genetics, says it all. The video is a seven week old fry from Sekiguchi Showas and maybe a shiro utsuri male. They are all in the same tank get the same food, the same water, but they aren't all the same size. The Tobies have been removed which are bigger still! The only difference is genetic? Interestingly some of the smaller koi have better patterns! Also these smaller koi will stay smaller and grow slower regardless of the food you throw at them. My advice would be to find someone who has fry and ask for some of there cullings and then pick out what you like to keep. As most breeders are looking to keep the biggest and fastest growers which would leave you with plenty of choice.

  16. #36
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    an other idea is goldfish/koi cross breeds
    they are much shorter but near koi in girth
    and some have colors like koi

    I have a few
    as I have a mix of gf with koi in a big swimming pool

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