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    Thread: POtassium Permanganate - How Much is too much?

    1. #1
      Wolfhound's Avatar
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      POtassium Permanganate - How Much is too much?

      I'm trying to clean up my water with pp treatments after having to bypass my bead filter over the summer because of the drought. Saturday I dosed enough for 6 ppm and have dosed 3-4 ppm daily since then and it still doesn't hold color for long.

      This is 15 minutes after dosing 3ppm of pp today...






      As you can see it turns brown very quickly and there's a lot of fine particulates in the water, I think this is a blue green algae I battled back in the spring only with no mechanical filtration it just got chopped up by the pump and sent back to the pond. It was larger chunks before I got the filter back online and started the pp treatments.

      Unfortunately a water change isn't an option. I only have enough water to backflush the bead filter once a day.

      So what do you think I should do? Keep on with the 3-4 ppm pp treatments, use a higher dose, or stop doing pp treatments?

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    2. #2
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      Buy an ORP Meter prior to SAFELY dosing PP would be my advice ....

      Many Phishkeepers are disappointed with PP Treatment of water simply because `once spent` you now have the KILLED fallout to remove mechanically effectively .... It is a complete waste-of-time and Money otherwise .....

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      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

      Seriously,

      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

      I will add more tomorrow, gotta run now, but...

      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

      Regards, Eric

      PS. I am not a PP nay-sayer, I like PP, but

      DO NOT RAISE THE DOSAGE.

    4. #4
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      I never do more than 2ppm PP at once but I will repeat until the purple color stay for more than 15 minutes. I also stop the pump and leave the aeration on so the PP isnt used to kill the benificial bacteria in the filter.

    5. #5
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      Test kits for PP use the Chlorine test procedure and adjust the value based on the oxidation value. A value of 4.0ppm of chlorine with a pool test kit will translate to a value of 3ppm PP. I will try to maintain my PP level at a chlorine level of 3 ppm for the treatment time, assuring the treatment lasts. If you are doing the treatment and then neutralizing the treatment with dechlor or hp, then residuals of those will neutralize the next days treatment.
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      Quote Originally Posted by CHICHI View Post
      Buy an ORP Meter prior to SAFELY dosing PP would be my advice ....

      Many Phishkeepers are disappointed with PP Treatment of water simply because `once spent` you now have the KILLED fallout to remove mechanically effectively .... It is a complete waste-of-time and Money otherwise .....
      I have an ORP meter I used for my reef tanks, never used it for the pond though. What is the method for using it to do pp treatments? I am mechanically removing as much as the bead filter will trap each day, which is a lot, but it's slow going considering how awful the water had gotten over summer.

      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      I never do more than 2ppm PP at once but I will repeat until the purple color stay for more than 15 minutes. I also stop the pump and leave the aeration on so the PP isnt used to kill the benificial bacteria in the filter.
      That is basically how I have been doing it. I add 2ppm and let it distribute through the pond then 1ppm at a time after that. Still after this many days/treatments it turns brown by the time it fully distributes.

    7. #7
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      Ok found this on using ORP for pp treatments...
      http://www.koiclay.com/page6.htm

      The water was such a dark brown that I used h2o2 (1/2 qt per 1000g) to clear it up some so I'll wait until Friday to do another treatment, although there is so much organics in the water that I doubt h2o2 can linger in the water for very long.

    8. #8
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      I have read somewhere that H2O2 drops the ORP so much that it stresses out the fish. True?

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      I have read somewhere that H2O2 drops the ORP so much that it stresses out the fish. True?
      Not that I have noticed. My fish seem oblivious to all of this. It's just me that's stressed.

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhound View Post
      Not that I have noticed. My fish seem oblivious to all of this. It's just me that's stressed.
      I've done 2ppm PP and 1/2 quart HP per 1000 gallons to keep string algae controlled for 2 years and never shut a filter off and
      never had a fish in distress... but this also isn't a process for a brand new or spotless pond. The stuff needs something to react with.
      Sounds like you have plenty.

      When you say you're trying to clean up your pond, is it algae or debris at the bottom, or ?
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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      When you say you're trying to clean up your pond, is it algae or debris at the bottom, or ?
      Right now I'm just trying to get the water clear enough to see the bottom. I'm sure their is some debris down there.

    12. #12
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      PP is not going to be a magic elixir to make your water clear. It can help but you need to remove the dirty water and replace it with clean water. Your filtration system is either not up to the job or your biomass is to big for the filters and pond.
      Need more Koi

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      Hi Wolf:

      IMHO and having used a lot of PP. I would stop with the PP until you have gotten a handle on the debris in the water column. Not using your bead filter for the entire Summer has allowed your pond to accumulate a lot of Junk. PP will only work on about the amount of organics equal to the amount of PP you are putting in. So how does it work on a pond full of algae? It only damages the cell wall which kills the single cell free floating algae. As Chi Chi points out that algae will still have to be removed from the water. PP is not a miracle worker in the sense that your bead filter probably removes a few cups of "stuff" from the pond each time you clean it. Asking PP to oxidize more than a few table spoons at a time is too much. It will probably help. However I would let your bead filter do its thing and back wash every day if that is all the water you can spare (can you spare a backwash 2 X daily?). If you have just a sight glass you may not appreciate the water coming out. However if you can catch some of the waste water you will see just how much crude it is removing. Far more than PP can do alone. So IMHO you are "wasting" your PP until you do get some clarity to the water. Then use the PP to help clear it further.

      If it were me and I had not had my bead filter on line for awhile. I would let the bead filter do its job and backwash as often as I could (1-2 times a day) for awhile before I hit it with PP every day. Why risk the fish or expose them if a mechanical means can avoid it. Then in a couple weeks maybe pick the PP treatments back up and see if it helps out.

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      Last edited by icu2; 10-10-2013 at 02:32 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhound View Post
      So what do you think I should do?
      Seems to me that your over-all filtration system just isnt up to the job - and PP isn't going to help one iota.

      So, to answer your question - upgrade & increase your filtration
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    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      Seems to me that your over-all filtration system just isnt up to the job - and PP isn't going to help one iota.

      So, to answer your question - upgrade & increase your filtration
      Upgrading my filtration won't do anything to end the drought that we are experiencing. It's hard to run a 25000 gallon pond without water, no matter what type of filtration there is.
      Last edited by Wolfhound; 10-10-2013 at 10:37 AM.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      (can you spare a backwash 2 X daily?). If you have just a sight glass you may not appreciate the water coming out. However if you can catch some of the waste water you will see just how much crude it is removing.
      My well can barely keep up with backwashing once per day so unfortunately I can't do more. The waste water looks like mud water so it's pulling a lot out each time.

      Thanks for getting to the jist of my question. I know the bead filter will eventually clear it up, I guess I'll just have to be patient. I was trying to speed things along with pp so I can get the pond cleaned up before I have to cover it for winter. It's a tropical pond so that might be in a week or two when we start getting our first cold fronts.

    18. #18
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      OK I got to ask. How many gallons in the pond, how many fish and what is your filtration? What pump are you using and do you have any aeration?
      Need more Koi

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      I've been under water restriction/drought before so I understand the dilemma you have. Nothing beats fresh water changes, so just do as much as you possibly can. I reuse all my water for landscape irrigation so nothing goes to waste.

      Using PP as a mechanical filter is not going to work well because it will take huge amounts to oxidize anything big enough for you to see, not to mention any leaves or gunk you have on the bottom. I would suggest increasing the mechanical filtration of your system by using cotton batting, landscape weed fabric, brushes, matting, or anything that will filter out the floating debris. Vacuum the bottom if needed. Then, after you have removed most of the organic matter that is floating around, the PP treatments will be more effective. And remember, any time you neutralize the PP you need to wait a couple days before treating again because your neutralizer is still active and you will have to overcome it's effect.

      I use an ORP meter and when using PP as a therapeutic dose at 2ppm, I run the ORP values about 200-225mv higher than my base value. I don't use PP as a clean-up, so you might even want to reduce that dosage if you are using it on a regular basis for maintenance. I don't expose my koi to any more PP than necessarily, but sometimes it is the lesser of two evils.

      As a long-term solution to your problem, you could install a large holding tank that you fill with pond water, treat it with a high dose of PP, then release it back into the pond as a pseudo water change.

    20. #20
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      Most of the comments recommend filter upgrade, and I have to agree.
      If you're short of water for back flushing, increased efficiency of your filter system will help - less water changes. so you can back flush/water change when water is available.

      Its not good to be adding pp at the rate you are, it will do nothing to clear your water.
      If you add a flocculant (koi clay), this will help bring fine solids down so the filter can handle it, and will benefit the fish as well.
      If you're not meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

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