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    Thread: airlift return

    1. #21
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      today was the day to start testing the airlift.. it went well but i think there is plenty of room to make improvements.



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    2. #22
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Glad to see you are playing with this project. I guess you build the Yambuki airlift manifold?
      I am interested in some more specifics to your setup.
      You said 42" in height in the video... Does that mean 42" of submergence (IE 42" from the top of the air injection manifold to static water level) or just 42" in total height?
      Another thing I am confused about it the actual air pump you are using? A Medo 45 should only produce max of 48-50 watts of electricity. Are you sure you aren't using a Medo 80?
      Next question is how are you estimating your water flow? Did you use the trash bag test?
      And finally what is your total lift for this setup? It looks to be about 3" once the airlift has raised the water in the green container.
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    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Glad to see you are playing with this project. I guess you build the Yambuki airlift manifold?
      I am interested in some more specifics to your setup.
      You said 42" in height in the video... Does that mean 42" of submergence (IE 42" from the top of the air injection manifold to static water level) or just 42" in total height?
      Another thing I am confused about it the actual air pump you are using? A Medo 45 should only produce max of 48-50 watts of electricity. Are you sure you aren't using a Medo 80?
      Next question is how are you estimating your water flow? Did you use the trash bag test?
      And finally what is your total lift for this setup? It looks to be about 3" once the airlift has raised the water in the green container.
      yes its a version of Yambuki airlift..

      yes it is 42" of submergence this would be from the bottom of the pipe to the static water level.

      yes i am sure it is a la45B

      i did the bucket test.. with the container empty i started the pump then hung a bucket under the outlet once flow was established and at a constant rate..

      yes the total lift is about 3"
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    4. #24
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      Are you going to run it like this or are you going to make tweaks?

    5. #25
      BWG is offline Senior Member
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      For airlifts submergence is calculated from the air injection point to the surface of the water. Submergence is a huge part of efficiency. If you went with a manifold like the ones Zac uses your submergence would be a lot better and the lift would be more efficient.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
      Are you going to run it like this or are you going to make tweaks?
      I will be tweaking and trying different setups as we go through the winter..
      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    7. #27
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kwickcut View Post
      yes its a version of Yambuki airlift..

      yes it is 42" of submergence this would be from the bottom of the pipe to the static water level.

      yes i am sure it is a la45B

      i did the bucket test.. with the container empty i started the pump then hung a bucket under the outlet once flow was established and at a constant rate..

      yes the total lift is about 3"
      Like BWG stated you do not have a 42" submergence you. Your submergence starts at the point where all of the air bubbles are trapped inside the airlift riser tube. That would be directly above the enlarged coupler. So based on a standard 4" street 90 + a coupler, your actual submergence is closer to 32". This is actually a good thing because it means your airlift is more efficient than you thought. It still blows my mind that a 45 lpm pump is pulling that much wattage. Usually air pumps pull almost equal wattage to the air supply.

      Keep playing and remember submergence is key. Every little bit helps.
      Zac
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    8. #28
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      ok i have made another setup and went with a 2" airlift that is 1/2 under static water level. my actual submergence is 30", disregard the submergence from the video as i shot it last night. now that i know that the actual submergence is measured should be taken from the air manifold holes to the static water level. this new airlift is flowing about 2200gph with the same wattage and amperage. i am getting closer to the flow i am wanting, i would like to reach 2500 to 3000gph. also if i can lower the wattage that would be great, if not i can deal with 2500 to 3000gph at almost 80 watts compared to 230 watts that the old pump was using.


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    9. #29
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      why U use so small pipes ?

      Try with 4" pipes it make a big difference

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by aquatechnobel View Post
      why U use so small pipes ?

      Try with 4" pipes it make a big difference
      i did try with a 4" pipe and it worked but i am trying different setups to see what would work best for my setup..
      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

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    11. #31
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      well i wanted to see what the flow return would be compared to a pump return.. i dont have a video of the pump return but will get one tomorrow..

      this is the video of the 2" return 18" off the floor 8' deep @ 2200gph i think it is pretty good.. i am guessing that it shoots out of the return about 2' before it starts to cloud up


      cant wait to see what is to some this is exciting stuff


      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    12. #32
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kwickcut View Post
      well i wanted to see what the flow return would be compared to a pump return.. i dont have a video of the pump return but will get one tomorrow..

      this is the video of the 2" return 18" off the floor 8' deep @ 2200gph i think it is pretty good.. i am guessing that it shoots out of the return about 2' before it starts to cloud up


      cant wait to see what is to some this is exciting stuff



      I am so glad you made this little video. There are some people that just can't get that an airlift return can flow water 8'+ below the pond water level. I try to tell them it doesn't matter how deep the return is because the only thing that matters is the head created inside the reservoir to push back to the pond.

      Back to the airlift situation...
      It still blows my mind that your Medo 45 is pulling that many watts. It just doesn't make sense compared to their electrical flow charts (see attached) I use Hakko's all the time and they are pretty much 1 watt per liter per minute of air, so a Hakko 40 produces 45 lpm at 4' deep and draws 45 watts at 120V. I only bring this up because you should be able to get the same flow rate with half the wattage if you were using my airlift manifolds (32" sub, 3" lift, 32.5 lpm air flow = 2200 gph). I encourage you to keep playing and get as close to my numbers as possible. It is exciting to see your improvements. You might also want to get an air flow meter so you can see what is really going on with the airlift... MMA-25 is what I use
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    13. #33
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      well i have made another airlift this time its a 3" setup and it is going into the container in the same location as the 4" airlift did.. it is flowing 2200gph @ 73 watts and is 2" above static water level.

      i was wanting to drop the wattage but i think i may not be able to lower them.. i plugged the la45 in with no load on it and the wattage drawl is 60 watts. so i am 13 watt over the no load readings and lifting 2200gph. tomorrow i am going to lower the inlet down to static water level and hope to get closer to 2800gph
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    14. #34
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      today i moved the airlift down so it is 1/2 under static water level.. by moving it down i increased the flow to 3000gph. i was shooting for 2500 to 3000gph so i have achieved my flow goal but now i have come up against another issue.. with the water at its static level i start the airlift, the water then rises about 3". everything working as it should one would think the flow from the tpr outlet would be greater then the flow that the airlift that was 2" above the static water level was.. now i dont have a flow meter hooked up. the way i checked the flow was to add koi clay to the container.. both airlifts the 2" above and 1/2 under the static water level, they both discharged the stream of clay and it was identical. both shot out 2' and then clouded up..

      what i think is happening..

      once the water level raises the 3" in the tank the airlift is not moving the water like it was before the water raised.. i believe that the pressure from the raised water is enough to slow the airlift flow.

      thoughts comments?

      anyone?
      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    15. #35
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      well the last few days i have been doing some more testing... both of my medo la45 with no load run @ 60 watts, and with all my different aitlifts the lowest wattage i could get is 73 watts until tonight.. i was able to get the wattage down to 64 watts with 35lpm of are moving 3,000gph 2" above static water level. my next hurdle is to find a way to return 3000gph back to the pond through a 2" return 8' deep..
      Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead. - Benjamin Franklin.

      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    16. #36
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      I'm not meaning to split hairs here, but Zac has a point about the power drawn by your air pump. The watt value given by your watt meter is exactly the volt-ampere number. It has been a long time since I was in apprentice school, but I don't think this is possible. The air pump has a coil in it. A choke for the electronic people. This will cause a reactive power factor. I would guess in the .6 to .7 power factor range. That would put the wattage at the same number as the LPM number and the same as the manufacturer's numbers. Also, if I remember correctly, as the coil (motor, prime mover, the thing that moves the diaphragm if you will) works harder the power factor deteriorates. It is how the guys in Europe can say they are moving massive amounts of water with a small amount of power. Their VA numbers are high, but the wattage is low because of the power factor. It is also why they recommend using a diaphragm pump over a piston pump.

      Of course seeing your meter readout in the videos could mean I am way out in left field too...

    17. #37
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kwickcut View Post
      today i moved the airlift down so it is 1/2 under static water level.. by moving it down i increased the flow to 3000gph. i was shooting for 2500 to 3000gph so i have achieved my flow goal but now i have come up against another issue.. with the water at its static level i start the airlift, the water then rises about 3". everything working as it should one would think the flow from the tpr outlet would be greater then the flow that the airlift that was 2" above the static water level was.. now i dont have a flow meter hooked up. the way i checked the flow was to add koi clay to the container.. both airlifts the 2" above and 1/2 under the static water level, they both discharged the stream of clay and it was identical. both shot out 2' and then clouded up..

      what i think is happening..

      once the water level raises the 3" in the tank the airlift is not moving the water like it was before the water raised.. i believe that the pressure from the raised water is enough to slow the airlift flow.

      thoughts comments?

      anyone?
      I think you are correct in your assumptions that the airlifts is actually slowing down due to the water level being higher than the airlift output. Pictures will always help clear things up but I am guessing you mean that the DYNAMIC water level inside the collection barrel is 3" above the top of the airlift output. If this dynamic water level is the same as it was before when the airlift was higher up then you are still producing the exact same flow once everything gets settled. The only real way to judge water flow when the outlet is below water level is to install a flow meter and read what it says.


      Quote Originally Posted by kwickcut View Post
      well the last few days i have been doing some more testing... both of my medo la45 with no load run @ 60 watts, and with all my different aitlifts the lowest wattage i could get is 73 watts until tonight.. i was able to get the wattage down to 64 watts with 35lpm of are moving 3,000gph 2" above static water level. my next hurdle is to find a way todown so it is 1/2 under static water level.. by moving it down i increased the flow to 3000gph. i was shooting for 2500 to 3000gph so i have achieved my flow goal but now i have come up against another issue.. with the water at its static level i start the airlift, the water then rises about 3". everything working as it should one would think the flow from the tpr outlet would be greater then the flow that the airlift that was 2" above the static water level was.. now i dont have a flow meter hooked up. the way i checked the flow was to add koi clay to the container.. both airlifts the 2" above and 1/2 under the static water level, they both discharged the stream of clay and it was identical. both shot out 2' and then clouded up..

      what i think is happening..

      once the water level raises the 3" in the tank the airlift is not moving the water like it was before the water raised.. i believe that the pressure from the raised water is enough to slow the airlift flow.

      thoughts comments?

      anyone?
      Koi clay will not be a very good indicator of water flow unless they are side by side streams. Even then I think it would be too hard to estimate the flows that way. I know it may be hard for you to do this, but you will get better flow rates if you allow the airlift riser tube to have a vertical water exit instead of making it go through a 90. I can't remember what my performance increase was but I think around 5% improvement or maybe even more.


      Quote Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
      I'm not meaning to split hairs here, but Zac has a point about the power drawn by your air pump. The watt value given by your watt meter is exactly the volt-ampere number. It has been a long time since I was in apprentice school, but I don't think this is possible. The air pump has a coil in it. A choke for the electronic people. This will cause a reactive power factor. I would guess in the .6 to .7 power factor range. That would put the wattage at the same number as the LPM number and the same as the manufacturer's numbers. Also, if I remember correctly, as the coil (motor, prime mover, the thing that moves the diaphragm if you will) works harder the power factor deteriorates. It is how the guys in Europe can say they are moving massive amounts of water with a small amount of power. Their VA numbers are high, but the wattage is low because of the power factor. It is also why they recommend using a diaphragm pump over a piston pump.

      Of course seeing your meter readout in the videos could mean I am way out in left field too...
      No you are correct! I don't know how old that watt meter is, but it may not be giving correct readings. I have a KiloWatt meter that I plugged in the other day and it said i had 146V and my Hakko 40 was using 90 something watts. I used a multi-meter and checked the voltage and it was actually 117V. I couldn't check the wattage because it wasn't a very good multi-meter and didn't have wattage.
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    18. #38
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post
      I'm not meaning to split hairs here, but Zac has a point about the power drawn by your air pump. The watt value given by your watt meter is exactly the volt-ampere number. It has been a long time since I was in apprentice school, but I don't think this is possible. The air pump has a coil in it. A choke for the electronic people. This will cause a reactive power factor. I would guess in the .6 to .7 power factor range. That would put the wattage at the same number as the LPM number and the same as the manufacturer's numbers. Also, if I remember correctly, as the coil (motor, prime mover, the thing that moves the diaphragm if you will) works harder the power factor deteriorates. It is how the guys in Europe can say they are moving massive amounts of water with a small amount of power. Their VA numbers are high, but the wattage is low because of the power factor. It is also why they recommend using a diaphragm pump over a piston pump.

      Of course seeing your meter readout in the videos could mean I am way out in left field too...
      thanks for the reply.. i have a pretty extensive background on electric and the workings of pumps and motors... i have tried 2 other watt meters and come up with the same readings as the original.. so i have eliminated the watt meter next was to eliminate the air pump itself so i took readings from another la45 that i have and had almost the same readings... pump one was 60 watts with and pump two was 61 watts and these readings were taken with no load.. when attached to the airlift the wattage was pump one 76 watts pump two 77 watts..

      now what i have found is the high wattage has to more to do with back pressure and tubing sizing then the airlift itself...
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      you cant fix stupid no matter how hard you try.

    19. #39
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      Zac maybe this video will answer some questions

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