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    Thread: plastic sheeting toxic???????

    1. #1
      ssddx is offline Member
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      plastic sheeting toxic???????

      hello all...

      i have had several koi indoors for at least six months and they were doing very well and were very healthy. since they were getting so big (10-14") and the enclosure wasnt big enough (80gal) and since my koi pond is not progressing fast enough (mostly due to weather) i decided to put them in a temporary home outdooors.

      a 250-300 gallon galvanized stock tank. now i do realize galvanized is not good so i lined it with large plastic sheeting you can commonly find at a hardware store. the next day (about 15 hours later) i had a few dead fish so i did a 50% water change. i figured because i let the tank sit a few days to warm up (i did add some algecide) perhaps the fact that it had a tiny bit of string algae had something to do with it. i then lost more fish and was down to two which seemed to be moving around and while they didnt come up to eat it seemed that the food was disappearing. they seemed like they wanted to avoid me but that was to be expected.. i chalked this up to them being terrified since i caught them in the tank less than a week ago. i then lost those two (my largest fish at over 14"). i am completely stumped as to why since the levels in the tank are completely in the norm with what i've had for 6 months. i cant see how i would lose every single fish to stress.

      the water levels were about the same as my inside tank was..

      i really dont want to discuss levels since i am well aware of what they should be and except that i'm a bit low on ph i was within range.... but what i really want to know is construction plastic sheeting (the stuff that is found near the concrete blocks in lowes) which is commonly used for a dropcloth when painting and other similar purposes toxic to fish in any way shape or form?

      i lost 6 fish in 7 days and the only factors that are different are the sheeting and the fact that i moved them.

      please just keep it to a simple yes or no and why. i dont really want to hear "why didnt you do this or why didnt you do that".

      as always.... thank you all for reading this and responding.

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    2. #2
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Sorry for your losses

      However in response to your drop cloth query...

      Lowes has a lot of different drop cloths http://www.lowes.com/Paint/Drop-Clot.../N-1z0yyf0/pl#! Some say "Slip-resistant" (so does it have a some sort of chemical additive?)


      I doubt it was the drop cloth though

    3. #3
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      While it could be there was a toxin on the sheeting, I have to ask if you added any air in there for them? Algaecides can really deplete the O2 in the water.
      It is hard to say what happened without having a few more specifics. Did you happen to check the gills on those that died? Where there any warning signs once they got put in the tank? I know my fish will usually give me some kind of indication if something is wrong.

      As an example, a couple of years back my neighbor had her trees sprayed. While the product was listed as safe for animals, I think they meant it wouldn't harm any that walked through it. It was devastating to my koi. I didn't lose any but they were all lined up, bellies flat on the walls of the pond and facing up.

      I hope you have the tarp/plastic removed.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #4
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      @bunyip

      http://www.lowes.com/Search=plastic+...stic+sheeting#!

      not sure its this exact brand (its been around awhile) but its similar to the blue hawk construction film you can get at lowes or home depot.

      it was large enough to use and i never have seen anything which said anything bad about such sheeting so i used it.

      -----------------------------------------

      @mariyln

      see above. also...

      i added algecide about 3-4 days before i had koi in the water. given the amount of water in the tank i did not even add the recommended dosage on the bottle.

      as soon as i added koi i moved all of my indoor equipment outdoors and that includes the air pump and air stones.

      the fish were not coming to the surface gasping for air. some of them also survived for over a week which leads me to believe it was not an aeration problem. if they were suffocating they would be dead rather quickly.

      as soon as i put them in they seemed content to lay on the bottom however they always do this when they are stressed. they exhibited the same activity when i used a net to catch one a few months ago that had fin rot and needed to be treated seperately.

      they were perfectly fine the morning after (about 12 hours later) but when i went out personally there were a few floating on the side (not quite dead yet) which i tried to put into fresh water. this is when i did the water change.

      the ONLY variables really are stress, plastic sheeting and letting the water sit for a few days. however given that i had fish die after i did a large water change i'm going to eliminate letting the water sit for a few days from that list.

      everything points to the sheeting being toxic however i cant seem to find a definitive source which says so. i also dont know the exact brand of the sheeting since we had it for awhile and its not in a box.

      all the fish are dead now so theres not much i can do. i just wanted to know what went wrong.

    5. #5
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      It does sound like a toxicity issue then. Without testing the water or the plastic you may never know.
      Sorry you lost them all but it's a good warning for those that might attempt a similar set up.
      Polyethylene is one plastic that seems totally acceptable for use in our ponds. It's commonly used for food stuffs and is FDA approved. If the mfg used polyethylene then it may not have been the cause but a quick search didn't yield the type of plastic they use.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    6. #6
      Sweetwater is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ssddx View Post

      everything points to the sheeting being toxic however i cant seem to find a definitive source which says so. i also dont know the exact brand of the sheeting since we had it for awhile and its not in a box.
      Where was the plastic stored? Is there a chance it could have been contaminated, especially since it wasn't in a box?

    7. #7
      ssddx is offline Member
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      on the top shelf in our basement. it was wrapped up in a tight roll like it came from the factory. at most it had a bit of dust on it but i didnt use the end of it anyways since i had some overhang.

      there is some paint stored a few shelves down but there is absolutely no way they could have dripped on it and all the cans are completely sealed. again, i didnt use the end of it anyways and i did a large water change and still had some fish die but not right away it took a few days which makes me think something leeched out of the plastic. as i said everything points to the plastic...

      i did have the plastic lining an older galvanized tank (which has been painted a few times as well) but i dont see how anything can leech through two sheets of thick (i'm guessing about 6-8 mil) plastic sheeting which would be about 12-16 mil total of plastic.

      as i said... i'm completely stumped as to what the problem could have been. there are almost no variables except the fact that i used plastic sheeting.

      when i added the fish into their new home i added some salt and some bacteria (which i've done every water change for 6 months). i know some dont like ML products but its worked fine so far and i've needed to do it because the fish were getting too big for my already oversized filter to handle inside

      so i ruled all of this out as a nonissue.

      the water wasnt even in direct sun and was gin clear except for a little algae on the bottom. more of a dusting more than anything else really.

    8. #8
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by ssddx View Post
      ...when i added the fish into their new home i added some salt and some bacteria (which i've done every water change for 6 months)...
      Absolutely no offense intended by my question: Did you add water ager/dechlorinator to the new tank water? Something that neutralises chlorine or chloramine depending on what you have.

    9. #9
      SueSTx's Avatar
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      I have had goldies in an unlined galvanized stock tank for about 8 years now with no issues. I don't think the tank itself can be part of your problem.
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    10. #10
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      I am not really asking you why you did or did not do somrthing, but I am trying to determine exactly what you did to see if there is another likely cause for the deaths other than a toxin from the liner.

      Whether you had supplemental aeration and whether you used of dechlorinator/ammonia binder are good questions. Also, did you make sure the water temperature was the same (or at least within about 2 degrees) when you transferred the fish?

      String algae would not have hurt the fish, but algicide will further reduce the oxygen concentration in the water, so without supplemental aeration, that could have contributed to the problem. In a low oxygen (or high carbon dioxide) setting, it is usually the largest fish that die first. With a toxicity issue, it is usually (but not always) the smallest fish that die first. Eight koi at 10" to 14" each is a big load for 250 to 300 gallons of water. While I cannot rule out toxicity from the plastic, everything you have told us points to lack of oxygen or high carbon dioxide (they are difficult to separate) , gill damage from chlorine or chloramine in the water, or temprature shock as the cause of the deaths.

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    11. #11
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      If it was fire retardant plastic I think that stuff is highly toxic to fish.
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    12. #12
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      @bunyip

      no offense taken at all and i mean that. really i just wanted to make it clear that i dont want to hear any drama. i know how some pet lovers can go over the top. i'm just looking for information on what went wrong.

      we do not have any problem with chlorine as we have well water and it is rather pure.

      i do use these products: microbe lift special blend, night out II, theraP... top fin ph plus... api stress coat, algaefix... morton un-iodized salt.

      i added algaefix a few days before the fish were in it. i added ph plus a little while before i added fish as well as some ml nite-out ii and special blend which i always add since i have too many fish for the filter. i put some stress coat in as well since i figured i would be handling them and they may have scraped against the net or my hands. i also added some salt to the water as i always do.

      the filter i did not clean or empty but it was just cleaned a few days before for inside use so should have been fine. the airstones and air pump were all working fine.

      @rickf

      see above.

      it was rather hot outside and the water was pretty warm. i would have to say it was a bit colder than the inside water but i did not check it with a thermometer. probably more than a 2 degree difference. when i do my inside water changes i just match the temperature by hand and there isnt any real problem.

      i did not have thick plastic bags in which to transport the fish only clear trash bags which were not very thick. i pulled them out of the water in the bag and had to support it by hand and put it in a bucket while carrying it out to the tank.

      i was going to float the bags on the water for awhile but even tied tight so that the inside is pressurized when i floated the bags they were crumpling in and sticking to the fish. i thought this was highly dangerous and could prevent the fish from breathing like how an infant can die from a plastic bag so i instead put the fish directly into the water as a judgement call.

      the fish all sat at the bottom for awhile but did move around when i walked around the tank. again, it clearly looked like stress to me as they sat on the bottom of the tank whenever i drained the water out for water changes.

      i added algaecide when i just put the water into the tank 3 or 4 days before i had fish in there. the string algae grew after that which must mean that there wasnt really all that much algaecide in there. i had the tank in the shade as well.

      the largest fish did not die first. here is a day to day. may not be exact but its a rough idea of what happened. in case it matters my smaller fish are scaled and the two largest are scaleless.

      day 1 cleaned outside tank, lined with plastic, added water and algaecide
      day 4 5:30pm added fish to tank, filter and regular chemicals
      day 5: 6:30am fish are still alive and moving around
      day 5: 8:00am two dead fish (smaller two), i did a 50% (or more since i had water going out as i was putting it in) water change and used my normal chemicals.
      day 5: 12:00am the fish seem to be doing alright. not very hungry though
      day 7: i lost the second largest fish which had a scrape on the side from feeding activity inside my fishtank indoors and also another smaller fish. the rest of the fish looked fine and nothing was out of the ordinary.
      day 10: i lost my remaining two fish.

      it seemed as if food i added was disappearing but they wouldnt come up to feed when i was there. not sure what this means but when i JUST added them to the new tank the hungry one (a chagoi) did come up to look at food i added but was moving as if it was in slowmo and wasnt really gobbling any food. it looked like it wanted to though. the best description i could give is as if the fish was drunk and couldnt find the food and couldnt move fast enough. it could swim around the tank perfectly fine though. i think it was stress. later on that day they moved around very quickly like normal.

      no gasping for air at the surface and i did do a large water change which should eliminate co2 or o2 as an issue. its a large surface area tank with airstones so its way better than the inside tank for o2 exchange. it would also eliminate algaecide as an issue.

      temperature shock i can see however it doesnt make sense with how the deaths line up. to me it looks like a leeching poison because i sure as well know its not high ammonia, nitrates or nitrites from the fish themselves.

      yes i am well aware that five (5) 10-14" long fish inside a 250-300 gallon stock tank is too many however do realize that they were inside an 80 gallon indoor fishtank! my pond is taking longer to build then i want due to weather and other factors so i wanted to get them outside to at least an enclosure 2-3x as big for temporary purposes. i used the same filter and airstones. a c530 filter which is overrated for an 80gal tank but underrated for that stock tank i know. its all i have for now so it should have been fine combined with water changes. inside it was fine for 6 months. i started out with about 9 fish in this same tank when they were 2-3" long. i lost two early on due to tank cycling before i knew much about it from personal experience and one due to a medical condition it must have had since i bought it since it never grew. after that time and since i knew more i havent had any more problems and in fact they all thrived.

      they were always hungry and even knew which people fed them!

      ----------------------------------------------

      like i said... just trying to figure out what the problem was so i can avoid any issues when i move new fish out from inside to the pond when its finished.

      its a definite shame to lose any fish but my favorite which i think was a mirror scaled doitsu kumonryu longfin isnt so common. it was rather creepy looking and had a habit of sitting still and staring at you with one eye. i rather liked the large doitsu chagoi as well since it was always so hungry and used to do tricks. i never have seen a fish which went vertical and stared at the surface of the water looking for food or put its head against the glass and swim back and forth all excited like then when you acted like you had food it would flip up and look at the surface.

      what i'll probably do is get a multi-fish special deal from hanover koi who raises fish and is apparently world renouned or from another local shop who buys from blackwatercreek koi which is also a very well known dealer. if i start small again i should have time enough to finish the pond and get them out.

      again... i'm really thinking it was the plastic...

    13. #13
      Aquajoe is offline Senior Member
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      I have no idea if the plastic sheeting was or is toxic. My guess would be a major change in pH killed your fish. The pH in an overstocked tank is usually low. Your new water probably had a higher pH. Without properly acclimating the fish, the difference in pH may have caused their deaths. Just my opinion.

    14. #14
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      I know it is extremely tough to lose your entire collection over a 10 day period. I am really sorry for your loss.

      I still cannot rule out the liner as the cause for your losses, but two other things jump out at me.
      it was rather hot outside and the water was pretty warm. i would have to say it was a bit colder than the inside water but i did not check it with a thermometer. probably more than a 2 degree difference. when i do my inside water changes i just match the temperature by hand and there isnt any real problem.
      I understand why you had to do what you did, but next time, it might be good to transport in a plastic tote and use a thermometer. A temperature change greater than about 2 degrees , especially when going from warm to cold, can cause fish to go into shock. When you do a water change the difference in temperature between the incoming water and the outgoing water is offset by the time that it takes to make the change (so the change in temperature is slower) and the fact that not only the original water, but the tank itself and everything in the tank is at the same temperature. This creates a heat sink that reduces the effect of the incoming water on the final temperature. If the difference between the tank and new water is 10 degrees, and you do a 25% water change, the effect on the final temperature in the tank will be less than 2.5 degrees, and it takes time to add the new water, so the fish can acclimate. When you just dump the fish into water that is 10 degrees cooler, they will go into shock.

      My other concern is with this statement:

      no gasping for air at the surface and i did do a large water change which should eliminate co2 or o2 as an issue. its a large surface area tank with airstones so its way better than the inside tank for o2 exchange. it would also eliminate algaecide as an issue.
      Since your source water is well water, there is a good chance that it has a naturally high CO2 content. It is true that the large surface area and airstones are good for aeration, but if the incoming water has high CO2, the larger and faster the water change is, the bigger the problem will be.

      Just to be sure that the liner is not what is causing the problem, the big box home improvement stores usually have an inexpensive, fish safe PVC liner in their garden supply department. I would either buy a plastic or fiberglass stock tank from a place like Tractor Supply Company or the PVC liner from one of the big box stores so that you know the tank is fish safe.

    15. #15
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      The plastic sheeting you used I'm sure was a Low-Density Polyethylene (LDPE) same stuff they make Baggies out of and most likely made by the blown-film extrusion process... there are no processing aids that are used in blown-film, no additives are in the Polyethylene except for the colorant (black) which was likely "carbon black"... there would have been no coatings on the plastic and nothing to leach out of it. Rest assure whatever killed your koi, it was not related to the plastic itself... you must look else where to find the killer.
      Last edited by monomer; 06-28-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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      @aquajoe

      our water ph is naturally low at around 5.5 to 6.0. i add some ph plus to buffer it up a bit and i do this every single water change so i highly doubt its a ph thing. the ph reading i got was around the norm for the inside tank as well which makes this a no go as a cause.

      @rickf

      ideally i would have acclimated the fish however given the circumstances. it doesnt make sense though since they did not die right away of shock but its almost as if something was eating away at them. again this looks like either nitrite poisoning (or was it nitrate i always get them mixed up) or some other toxin. i am 100% sure it is not nitrite or ammonia which leaves other toxins.

      i've done large water changes on my inside tank without issue. actually i had an accident recently where i got pulled away when draining water and had to replace 80% of the water in the tank since i siphoned it out and wasnt around to stop the siphon. my own fault i know but the fish were perfectly fine. they were a bit freaked out when the water was low but when i added water they were fine. same water as i put in the tank so i would be extremely suprised if it was the water which caused an issue. i have done large water changes with slightly green water and also some with algae fix added with no ill effects. again... i've been using the same water source for 6 months so i dont think it would be the water.

      @monomer

      its the translucent white plastic sheeting not black. i cant be sure but i do think it is polyethelene. i agree with you.. i've never heard about polyethelene plastic being toxic to fish but i've covered every other factor i can think of and nothing else is out of the ordinary.

    17. #17
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      I've worked with plastics as a career the last 30 years (I teach in Plastics Engineering Technology at a state University)... if you want to be sure its polyethylene, take a piece of it and try to sink it in water, if it floats its either polyethylene or polypropylene (both are fish safe) all other plastic sheeting will sink, to be certain is polyethylene burn a piece of it, if it smells like wax it is polyethylene (polypropylene will smell like diesel). Translucent is polyethylene's natural color therefore there are no additives. Judging from your story there are many possible culprits (low oxygen, low pH, temp fluctuations, etc) but you can be sure the plastic sheeting isn't one of them.
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      it most likely is polyethelene then. i agree that everything i've ever heard points to it being safe.

      everything i've also done in the last six months also points to everything else i've done as being alright.

      this is why i'm completely stumped!

    19. #19
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      I had my first pond lined with a double layer of black plastic from the hardware store. It lasted for years with koi and goldfish in it with no problems at all.


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      Quote Originally Posted by ssddx View Post

      ... i am 100% sure it is not nitrite or ammonia ...
      How do you know it isn't?

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