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    Thread: Trying to spawn an Omosako Shiro Utsuri female and Dainichi Showa male.

    1. #21
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      OMG, the eyeball stage is ruff, I just got to make it through these water changes and everything will be ok.

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    2. #22
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      How is your male doing?

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by player30 View Post
      How is your male doing?
      Hi player30, The damaged fins are healing fast with melafix, amazing product seem to be working.

    4. #24
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      Fry hatched so fast, I wasn't expecting them today.

      Lets see my fished spawned 6/23 technically from 11am, so they really spawned on 6/24 12 pm. They started hatching today 6/26 which is about two days. I was really caught by surprise, I was thinking they would hatch in about 4 to 6 days that's why I added a full dose of malachite green to combat the fungus that was growing on some eggs. After I added the malachite green, I went shopping for some supplies, such as frozen baby brine shrimp, air stones, Saki Hiraki High Growth koi food, coffee grinder, coffee filter screen and coffee filter paper. As soon as I got back I went straight in the back yard to take out the malachite green. While I was doing the water change, I notice things moving around on the side of the tub. Yup, some of them hatched.
      At least the early birds survived the malachite green treatment. I'll post pictures latter, I'll be back, water is over flowing.
      Last edited by Roger; 06-26-2013 at 09:27 PM.

    5. #25
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      Keep it up, can't wait to see more.



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    6. #26
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      I have a big problem....

      My mosquito net idea does not work because the fry can swim right through it! This causes a big problem with my filtration. I had to put a fine net in the bottom drain to change the water and when I checked the fine net there was a lot of dead fry stuck to it. I'm scrambling to redesign my system. I forgot how small they were.
      I bought a long skinning fine net that I will use to cover a new inch and a quarter pvc gravity feed drain and I'll cut a coarse filter material to hold the bag open. This should solve the drain problem; however, I have another problem," How am I going to take out the mosquito net without getting the tiny fry gills stuck in it!"
      Ok, I got rid of the mosquito net, it wasn't that hard.


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      Last edited by Roger; 06-27-2013 at 06:09 AM.

    7. #27
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      Hi Roger
      fry will swim up and follow the currant so if you can start a flow out of the tank to another via a 2inch pipe by trickling in new water via a purifier and make a hole in the tank top and add a tank connector and pipe this to a vat or another nylon nett to capture fry in !while you sort oy the mosquito net and filtration !.
      I use fry nets designed for the job by a company called Norfine these may be expensive to buyt but are made of the right material and last years like tens of years infact one of my first fry nets is over twenty years old ,also fry are larve for the first few days before mouth and then gills and fins develop so in this time are very dellicate .
      and a huey hung filter system is best on a slow rate as even fast air bubbles can bend all your fry's backs !and make the whole point of breeding a non starter !.
      its best to have sponge filtration as this also wont take out food your feeding them to get on well and grow fast out of the danger zone ,so insuforia stays in the water body and is not filtered out ,fry will be stronger and have a better rate of survial as this is a first stage plankton food and is most important to fry .
      and as it also runs on a air pump will also cost less to run but they will get the right foods they need as over filtration is not good ,and is really only ok if your fry are 0.5-1inch then use a power filter with adjustable taps for a slow flow first then increase as feeding increases and use sponge on the pick up to avoid fry been sucked into a filtration .
      hope that helps some and gets you thinking on how to and what way is best for you ,as I realize its all on bugets and really know how i guess and so I will leave that one to you ! as you know what you can and can't do and everybody has their own way of rasing fry !.
      And remmember fry are totally differant to adult koi as you need to build there immune system ,and a stew pond is best for that or a heated vat with plankton in it but only at two weeks old as some plankton will kill fry ,or raise in clean tanks with yeast live water and add plankton =daphnia later at 1inch .
      all the best and hope you keep some fry and solve your problem !.
      nice set up and did you finish that last no 8 can of sapporo !lol !! I would have !.
      Last edited by wayne1; 06-27-2013 at 03:14 AM.

    8. #28
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      Wayne, I'm thinking about what you said about the fry following the current to separate them to a clean tank. However, it appears that I need a fine net and no one sells them locally. In fact, there are no fully stocked koi stores here, just pet stores.

      I threw out the plants and spawning material today 6/27, they had a lot of fungus on them. After I hose down the horse hair ropes and dry them in the sun, I'll throw it in the washing machine and tuck it away.

      I added the infursoria water, decapulated brine shrimp eggs and spirlina powder to get them going.

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      Last edited by Roger; 06-28-2013 at 02:28 AM.

    9. #29
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      6/27 8pm, I am overwhelmed by the sheer number of free swimming fry. I already lowered the pump water flow and I took all of the air stones out to prevent bending their backs, and placed them in the filtration tanks on high, but the fry are all congregating by the waterfall? As I recall, in my last spawn with this tank I did not see any bent backs. Most of them had inborn deformities, probably from the mating of siblings. That's why, in this spawn, I paired different bloodlines. I chose Omosako's shiro uttsuri female for its checker board sumi pattern and I chose Dainichi's Sakura male to dominate the color pattern. What I want to see is a batch of normal healthy koi, unlike the 95% deformity rate I experienced with my last spawn. I'm not concerned about pattern at this stage. Furthermore, I want to document the ratio of how many showa to shiro utsuri. My theory suggest that the male showa will dominate the gene pull, so I should get more showa. Size is another consideration for future breeding, currently Dainichi's showa grow bigger than Omosako's shiro utsuri. My theory on body (size) suggest that the body of the female will dominate, so an experiment of breeding a male shiro utsuri and female showa pair will serve to compare the ratios.
      In conclusion, my goal with this spawn is to produce a high quality showa with checker board sumi pattern on a well defined 3 stepped kohaku pattern with snow white skin.
      Last edited by Roger; 06-28-2013 at 03:06 AM.

    10. #30
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      Hi Roger
      yes as the fry grow out deformaties become more apparent ! and yes cross out as this will help this part greatly ,and its good you like me love to experiment as you never know with the gene pool what will come ,but a good first sign is a strong spawn with a high hatch rate !.
      So they are looking good and lets hope you have a good result ,its just about keeping that water sweet and ,yeast will help and lettuce will help keep it clear ,I add every four days along with decapsulated and then keep temps high and a good KH for best oxygen content and bio sponge filters but you have a better set up than me so looks like a good understanding of fry and keeping things in order so its all on keeping on top of size grading and I use a lily basket to help quick culling and then its just down to picking out deformed fry and once thats done you will see growth take off so to another thing nylon stockings are great for fry nets so I nick my other halfs !lol
      so there are other things on the market you can adapt and get cheaply if you are struggling to find fine netting !.
      I also use these for adding coral to tanks to buff up my KH and limestone for GH .
      So even when cycling here in the uk I might even wear a pair to keep my legs warm lol !.
      But don't tell the wife !.
      Well I have let you know a few of my secrets about koi and fish breeding so get a few pairs of tights they may come in handy at spawning time !.lol!
      You could ask Kodama to sell some to koi hobbists in Hawaii ! .
      Last edited by wayne1; 06-28-2013 at 03:56 AM.

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    11. #31
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      Wayne, I stopped the flow through early this morning and decided to give it a go. I added yeast plus Strata Sludge Remover plus colonized bacteria that was growing with my fish free back up plants to my stagnant kiddy pool. I wonder if all the dead eggs on the bottom is natures way of providing food for the beneficial bacteria to grow. I took a nitrite and ammonia reading of that pool in the evening and it had some activity. There were trace elements of ammonia and nitrite indicating that the process is cycling, and on top of that the milky water became clear. I lowered the air flow on my sponge filter because I saw a few bent fry's and I will be adding Amquel daily to handle the trace elements of ammonia and nitrite until I see zero.
      I have an idea, you know that plastic tube above the sponge filter. I decided to drop the water level at the same height and turn up the aeration. On second thought, scratch that idea, didn't work. If I do that, I'll have no oxygen in water. lol
      Last edited by Roger; 06-29-2013 at 03:38 AM.

    12. #32
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      This is looking so awesome...shiro utsuri are one of my favs so I'm jealous that you got thousands of them just swimming in your backyard!!

      Over-aeration causes bent backs? I noticed I have 3 out of 46 that have bent backs or tails, I thought it was genetics.

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by Midorigoi View Post
      This is looking so awesome...shiro utsuri are one of my favs so I'm jealous that you got thousands of them just swimming in your backyard!!

      Over-aeration causes bent backs? I noticed I have 3 out of 46 that have bent backs or tails, I thought it was genetics.
      I want to turn up the air volume, but Wayne made a valid point. I always learn the hard way.

    14. #34
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      Roger,
      With those huge garbage can filters, you could probably aerate inside of them without hurting the fish. Then the water returning to the tank will be oxygenated more without damaging the fry.

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by dragonfly1976 View Post
      Roger,
      With those huge garbage can filters, you could probably aerate inside of them without hurting the fish. Then the water returning to the tank will be oxygenated more without damaging the fry.
      That is what I am doing with the blue tank, its the inflatable tank that has the sponge filter. I'm using two different concepts. One is bio filtration through cycled bio media with a water pump and the other is sponge filtration with aeration.

    16. #36
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      That's good you have two types of filters, sponge and bio moving bed ! looking good Roger !

    17. #37
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      Todays water test 6/30

      The blue tank with the bio filtration has no ammonia or nitrite on the return water flow. The inflatable tank with the sponge filters has no ammonia, but there is a nitrite spike of 5 mg/L. I took most of the fry out of the inflatable tank yesterday; however the sheer number of them is staggering. There are a good number of smaller ones that are still left in the tank. I'm doing a 50% water change and increasing the air flow to the sponge filters. I will keep the water level about one inch above the plastic sleeve on the sponge filters, to minimize any damage. I'm surprised to see no ammonia in the inflatable tank and I am curious to see this through until there is no nitrite. The information contained on the Amquel gallon says it will bind more than 2 mg/L of nitrite, nitrate and ammonia; plus de-chlorinate and remove heavy metal. I have used Amquel in a previous spawn while cycling a bio filter up, so I know how invaluable it is. I did not add any salt at this point because I feel the plant rooting system is structured to provide a surface area where the beneficial bacteria can grow. Also, the plant provides natural occurring infusoria.

    18. #38
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      Hi Roger
      I also use a coral gravel bed to keep PH & KH up as you want the most oxygen ,you can just add this once ammonia is zero so it also helps with nitrite ,and helps bacteria keep in good health ,another thing to look out for with large numbers of fry in a tank,vat or pool is nitrate ,try and keep it below 40mgltr ,I try and keep it around 10-20mgltr as this can quickly get high making it toxic to fry ,so little and often water changes and build up to bigger ones as they grow out .
      I use a 100 gallon tank for this and get them to 1-2inch ,feeding 6 times a day onsilk and crushed sakai hikari growth food, also keeping temprature and water balanced with buffers helps if you forget a water change .
      and thats the important part is keeping it balanced and well oxygenated as the buffers will keep better oxygen content which is important for fry and adult koi as they grow out ,I try for 8-16 d KH as you eat the calcium carbonate up with fry development and bacteria also take a big chunk .
      also before moving fry and decanting to other tanks always make sure they are the same water qulity and oxygen levels with buffers .
      Also if using Amquel don't use salt ,and yes Api have some great products to use and better quality test kits that can be read easily like their KH & GH Kit Very good as you can see the colour change easily on this .
      I never use plants in fry systems because of risk of bringing in a nasty parasite ,but as long as they are from a good source I don't see any problems .
      Last edited by wayne1; 07-01-2013 at 01:18 AM.

    19. #39
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      6/30 afternoon water test

      Wayne,
      After the 50% water change in the am the tank that had the nitrite spike is stabilized at .25 mg/L that is a big difference from 5 mg/L there is definitely something going on with the sponge filters. Also, the dead eggs has turned into a brown algae. I've been adding a packet of yeast in the morning and after noon.

    20. #40
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      Also, I've been doing a little research on shiro utsuri and found out that the ki utsuri was the first to be introduced. Hi utsuri and shiro utsuri was developed after. This may have some significance as to what I saw today. I was looking into my fry tank as the sun glistened through the shade cloth and I noticed that all the fry eyes are akame (red). I have never looked for this before, so I don't know if this is normal. In addition, there are some black; white and black; white and red; and white frys. I know I am suppose to keep just the black ones, but some of the others look magnificent. I am not looking forward to culling these.
      Last edited by Roger; 07-01-2013 at 02:28 AM.

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