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    Thread: Fish dying, slowly but continuously.

    1. #1
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      Fish dying, slowly but continuously.

      the size and stocking density of your pond - about 1100 gallons, 25 sm-med gold fish, 5 small koi

      * the type of filtration you have -- bio filter only, lots of pond lilies... too many, but the water stays clear and I get no algae blooms.

      * your maintenance routine, 20% change out every few weeks. It gets hot and dry here and we get a lot of evap so I'm constantly adding water as well.

      * the last time you performed maintenance. This past weekend.

      * They also need to your water parameters, including the temperature. - i don't have them but my son reads the strips as I'm color blind and can't figure it out. The values have been fine except for hardness and alkalinity, we have very hard water here. In the last 13 years, I've never had water problems.

      * The last time you added a new fish. -- added several fish in May when the pond began to warm.

      *** My son unintentionally (well, it was intentionally but I don't think he realized what might happen) added a couple of 10 cent feeder goldfish that were for our turtle (kept in a tank). He thought the feeders looked "cool" and wanted to keep them. ***

      About two weeks ago I started noticing that one of my best koi was hanging out near the waterfall water return. I thought I might be having oxygen problems though it's never been an issue in past years. I added a small bubbler to improve oxygen. I didn't see any physical issues with the fish.

      He continued his odd behavior. When I'd go out in the morning to feed I'd see him up near the water return just hanging out. Very shallow area but surrounded by pond plants.

      A few days later I noticed more fish joining him. As many as a dozen.

      I did not notice any other odd behavior though that fish quit eating.

      Then I started to find dead gold fish that had previously been quite healthy and active.

      First one, then two more.

      I started searching your forums and began some treatments including salt and a pond medicine from Petsmart, I believe it's called DesaFin.

      It didn't seem to help at all.

      More fish died. I think I'm at 8 or 9 today. I just fished out one of my hardiest koi. I have a picture



      Link to larger: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-q...618_203327.jpg

      this guy seemed fine a several days ago. He was actively feeding and socializing with the other fish and would come to the side of the pond for feeding. Then, maybe 4 days ago, he started doing the 'hanging around the waterfall return' like the other koi that died.

      Today, he was floating sidewise when I took him out. He was still responding to stimuli when I took the photo, his eyes would move but his mouth was locked closed and he looks rather horrible.

      I talked to a local pond guy who suggested I ramp up the salt levels to 6%. I didn't see anyone here recommend that number so I tried to be a little more conservative and it should be 3-4%, but I have no salinity testing apparatus and can't be sure.

      Another thing I added a few weeks ago were floating plants, one water hyacinth and one water lettuce (both of which have started reproducing).

      I have a couple other photos of other dead fish.

      These were number 3 and 4, although the first koi to die.



      Link to larger: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-i...o/IMG_6936.JPG

      Here is a link to another fish, a goldfish, that died yesterday.

      https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Q...617_193026.jpg

      So, Monday, I did a 25% water change and added 2 pounds of salt, pulled a bunch of plants out of the water in case the salinity level is too high.

      The remaining fish are crazy skittish over the last 2 days. They will come out to eat but dart up to the surface very fast and hide again.

      I don't currently see any exhibiting signs that these other did before they died.

      Hopefully I'm not rambling too much.

      Thanks.

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    2. #2
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Sorry to hear about your fish

      Ummm... I hope this is a typo about the amount of salt you were advised to add!

      Quote Originally Posted by nebraskoi View Post
      I talked to a local pond guy who suggested I ramp up the salt levels to 6%. I didn't see anyone here recommend that number so I tried to be a little more conservative and it should be 3-4%, but I have no salinity testing apparatus and can't be sure....
      So, Monday, I did a 25% water change and added 2 pounds of salt, ...
      That level of 6% (if it is what you meant to say) is far, far too high! That level is double what it should be for even a 30 second salt bath

      Please have a look at this Salt Level Table... http://www.koiandponds.com/salt_tables.htm

      Can you possible have your son get drip test kits (not dip-stick tests) for your water readings and post the results? Ammonia, NitrATE, pH and KH? Maybe someone will be able to advise on your initial problem with more info

      You also say that you have a 1100 gallon pond... but 'more than a dozen fish' joined the sick one at the water return... how many fish do you actually have in 1100 gallons, what type and what size? Sorry, just realised that you said "25 sm-med gold fish, 5 small koi"... that's a lot of fish in only 1100 gallons.
      Last edited by Bunyip; 06-18-2013 at 11:56 PM.

    3. #3
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      Well, I am able to get test stuff myself, just can't read it. I'll look around and see what's available locally. The guy I talked to who said 6% (yes, it said 6%)--he was talking 4 pounds of solar salt... I didn't add that much. I added 2 lbs.

      Should I be draining the pond and rehoming the fish?

    4. #4
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      Looking at the table, perhaps he meant to say .6%? Because I only added 2 pounds, and according to that chart, I could have added quite a bit more.

    5. #5
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Sounds like it may be Costia and I am sure the salt level you are talking about is .6%, which is fine. Costia can be killed with salt but it is more likely that ProformC would work better. If it is Costia, and you use ProformC, you need to have no salt in your pond.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    6. #6
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by nebraskoi View Post
      Looking at the table, perhaps he meant to say .6%? Because I only added 2 pounds, and according to that chart, I could have added quite a bit more.
      Oh! I read that bit about you adding the 2 pounds as if you had already added the salt to make it around 3-4% then added another 2lbs! Thanks for clarifying!

    7. #7
      Victoria is offline Senior Member
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      I'm so sorry about your fish.

      You have done the right thing in coming here for help - unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough to help you, but the experts here will give you *much* better advice than you are iikely to get at a local store. The Koiphen team is top notch.

      Best of luck with the rest of them.

      -Victoria

    8. #8
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by nebraskoi View Post
      ...
      I started searching your forums and began some treatments including salt and a pond medicine from Petsmart, I believe it's called DesaFin....
      What does the DesaFin have in it? Is it this product... http://www.columbiawatergardens.com/...ml_p/16366.htm (Tetra Pond Fish Treatment, 8.4 oz, 250 ml (formerly DesaFin))

      If so, I believe it contains 'formalin' and unfortunately formalin and salt should not usually be used together.
      "You should reduce the salt level to 0.3% or lower before using Formalin in the pond because Formalin reduces the amount of oxygen in the pond and salt causes the gills to slime up more; reducing their ability (slightly) to pick up that oxygen.
      Hopefully your salt level was quite low and the addition of the DesaFin did not lead to the fish seeking more 'oxygen' by the waterfall.. however I suspect it may have done.

    9. #9
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      The fish were doing this for a week before any treatment began. I haven't noticed them doing it more regularly. So, should I do another partial water change tomorrow?

    10. #10
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
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      I don't think it would cause any harm to do another water change - say about 20%. Just make sure you add a good quality water conditioner/dechlorinator (if you have Chloramine in your water, make sure you use one that will neutralise the ammonia, obviously

      Just wondering... have you had some hot weather there lately? I'm wondering if your pond water has warmed up a lot, which can/will cause oxygen issues. You say you added a 'small bubbler'... it may not be enough.

      To be honest, all signs point to lack of oxygen, however having said that, knowing your water parameter readings are really a 'must' so we have an idea of what might really be going on and narrow the field as to why they are acting like they are short of oxygen

      As Russell said, it could well be something like Costia... or something as equally nasty but we just don't have enough information yet.
      http://www.cascadekoi.com/Koi/KoiParasites.aspx
      Last edited by Bunyip; 06-19-2013 at 02:23 AM.

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    11. #11
      Loco4Koi's Avatar
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      You said "bio filter".... What kind of" bio filter? "
      Right after you said" bio filter", you mentioned your plants... That wasn't the bio filter in and of itself, was it?
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    12. #12
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      ... Fyi, replacing water lost to evaporation does not equal any sort of "water change"
      The "bad stuff" doesn't evaporate
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    13. #13
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Loco4Koi View Post
      You said "bio filter".... What kind of" bio filter? "
      Right after you said" bio filter", you mentioned your plants... That wasn't the bio filter in and of itself, was it?
      I can't remember the brand name and I don't think it's made any longer... but it looks like the one in this link: http://www.gardenponds.com/Bio-Pure-...re-Filter.html

      I bought probably 10 years ago and I've been able to replace the filter media and rubber gaskets as of last summer. It's getting harder to find the parts.

      I only mentioned the plants because I've read that they can help oxygenate the water as well as provide for some natural 'filtering'.

      I do understand that replacing evaporated water =! a water change.

      Also, just wanted to reply in general about oxygen... I inherited this pond from a previous owner. It was never put together right and it's been a struggle since day one.

      When I moved in, the filter had not been running for at least a year. The water was putrid. You couldn't stand close to the pond due to the smell. You couldn't see any fish at all.

      It was only when I went to drain it that I discovered nearly a dozen mature koi and a healthy catfish (along with perhaps two dozen goldfish). After that, I worked hard to clean it and keep it clean.

      In 14 years, I've never had an oxygen problem. Never had any infections of fish kills except through stupidity and negligence. One was during an incrediably bitter winter when the pond heater failed and I didn't notice. All the fish died. I went without fish for 3 years before trying again last year. Then I accidentally killed them when the hose didn't shut off during a partial water change and flooded out the pond over night. I assume they all died from having 100% water change... between the cold water and the chlorimines.

      Anyway, I've had way more fish in much worse water conditions.

      If it were oxygen, wouldn't affect all the fish or more than 1 or 2 fish at a time?

      The rest of the fish seem okay, except skittish. They all came up for food this morning and looked okay, swimming normally, vigorously.

      I do have an old microscope in the garage. I've seen people talk about 'scraping' and analyzing the results under the microscope.

      Meanwhile, I'll be off this afternoon looking for a real testing kit.

      Thanks very much for all the replies. I'm processing everything.

    14. #14
      Loco4Koi's Avatar
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      I think... But am not sure,,, that oxygen issues usually kill larger fish first... Oxygen issues rarely kill all fish at once...
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    15. #15
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      Looking at the pics of the deceased koi, with those notches on their faces, I would suspect Costia as Russ did earlier. It moves fast so if you don't want to be starting all over again, I'd treat the pond for a costia infestation.
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    16. #16
      snooklynn0616 is offline Inactivated
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      I am sorry you are having all these problems and loosing your fish. Folks on here are great people and very knowledgeable. They have way more knowledge on the subject than me. I hope you can find the solution. I just wanted to wish a fellow cornhusker well.

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by McKTX View Post
      Looking at the pics of the deceased koi, with those notches on their faces, I would suspect Costia as Russ did earlier. It moves fast so if you don't want to be starting all over again, I'd treat the pond for a costia infestation.
      I noticed the notches, too, which is a sign of Costia. You can go to .6 salt OR get the salt below .1 and use ProFormC. You cannot use the ProFormC with salt. Costia is known to like the gills which might explain their hanging in the waterfall.
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    18. #18
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      Went and found a real pond testing kit... think I got ripped off though. But anyway...

      According to my son...

      High Range pH: 8.2
      Ammonia: .25
      Nitrites: .25
      Nitrates: 0

      I took pictures of the tubes next to the chart because I don't trust my color vision with something like this...

      https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...03655015820673

    19. #19
      nebraskoi is offline Junior Member
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      I also looked into a dissolved oxygen test... none available locally that I can find... and those 'meters' they sell on line are prohibitively expensive.

      No further dead fish today. None hanging out near the waterfall.

    20. #20
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      First, adding the 2# of salt would only raise the salt level about 0.02% and that won't interfere with the use of Proform C or QuickCure, or similar formalin plus malachite green concoctions. Since you have plants, you would not want to use the salt concentration that would take care of costia, which I agree looks to be the problem. If you were to try to use salt to take care of costia, and your pond truly is 1100 gallons, it would take 55 pounds of salt, but all of your plants would be killed in that salt concentration. Find the Proform C or similar and start it as soon a practical. With the fish dying at the rate that they are dying, you should expect to lose some during and shortly following the treatment.
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