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    Thread: Doing it right this time / Lemons to lemonade

    1. #1
      Rogerstigers's Avatar
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      Doing it right this time / Lemons to lemonade

      So if you are just beginning this saga, the precursor threads are:


      Here
      AND
      Here

      In a nutshell, we hired a local company to build our pond and they failed at it. They are honoring their warranty on craftsmanship and we are taking advantage of that to correct our mistake on size (we wanted 5000 and it was more like 3000 due to dimensions we gave them) and doing a much more robust filtering implementation.

      So the point of this thread is to brainstorm with the experts here and come up with a solid plan before they do ANY more work.

      You can see pictures of the original build here

      So here's what we are starting with. We want to increase the volume of the pond to 5000 gallons. Because of the sewer line running parallel to the pond, the only direction we can go is longer. Luckily there is room and adding 5 feet to each side would give us that volume. I think this would also merit adding a second skimmer (one on each narrow side) to handle the surface area.

      I am struggling on how to do the water return, though. I would love to bring it up in the center and then we can either do a fountain or jets or both, but I am also considering just a couple of side jets. I am also wondering if a 24' long pond would require two bottom drains.

      As for filtering, we want to go ahead and keep the Challenger pallet and use it on the skimmers. The bottom drains will go to a gravity fed separator and then mechanical filtration of some sort. That part we still need to decide upon.

      So that's our current goal. These koi are our family, not "just fish", trophies, or inventory. We want them to have a good home to live in, room to grow, and something attractive to be a centerpiece for our landscaping.

      Basic Starting Specifications:

      Desired Volume: ~5000 gals
      Estimated Interior Dimensions: 24' x 6.5' with a depth of 5' (can vary , but must meet volume)
      Reinforced Cinder Block Wall construction with a 16" footer
      40 mil EPDM rubber liner with backing material
      Flagstone finish with smooth interior edges
      2 Skimmer units integrated into the pond walls on the short sides
      Will use existing Challenger 50 pallet to operate skimmers
      Something for the bottom drain(s?)
      Something for aeration.


      Edited to add:

      Before I get yet more people telling me to demo it and get my money back, that simply is not going to happen. They have a warranty on their work that they are honoring. They will not give my money back. I am, however, strictly limiting their work. They will be building the footer and the walls and putting the stone on the outside (that's if they don't sub-contract all of the concrete work to an actual concrete crew). The equipment will be purchased by me directly and the plumbing will either be done by me or by a local guy who we found after this fiasco who is an experienced pond builder. As I mention later in the thread, I am also considering a drop in liner from birdman, but I have to chat with him about it first.
      Last edited by Rogerstigers; 06-04-2013 at 09:48 PM.

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    2. #2
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      I was wondering about something, too. Watching the Sankrete and QuicKrete videos on building concrete block walls, they all stack the bricks with mortar, but they do mention dry stacking as an option. Anyone know what difference (if any) there is between the two styles aside from finished look (assuming the bricks are all filled with concrete)?

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

    3. #3
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      read search read search read you will see

    4. #4
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      Thinking about another option.. rather than going longer, we can go deeper. 3 ft deeper will give us the extra 5000 gallons without adding to the footprint. In addition, it will put 5' of water below ground, which will help with the heat. Kinda liking that idea.

      someone double check my math, though, since that was my mistake in round 1. 14' x 6.5' x 8' = 729 cu.ft. = ~5400 gals.

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

    5. #5
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      I don't want to overstep here, but I don't think you really have the option of changing the pond in anyway other than having them construct it properly. You signed off on the footprint, agreed to the depth, and they screwed up everything else I don't think they will be willing to increase the size whether it be depth or length just because the craftsmanship failed. This would require excavating/removing more earth which will add to the labor costs of the project. They are on the hook for the materials, but I can almost guarantee they will try to re-use the original liner (which based on the amount of wrinkles and folds inside the pond shouldn't be a problem) meaning the footprint cannot change. There shouldn't be a problem with that as long as they are careful when they take it apart.

      As for the filtration system...
      I hate bead filters personally and due to the fact that there is no pre-filter before the pump I think you should at least make that change. However this will have to be on your buck because the filter system did not fail. It is just not optimal for a koi pond, and the research into the filtration system should have been done before the project was started and contract signed. I know I sound harsh but these are just the facts. I have to deal with customers all the time that were not informed of proper filtration before their pond was built, and now need to spend lots of money fixing their previous mistakes. Based on the filter system that you do have I would not recommend a settling chamber but a vacuum pre-filter would be best.

      No matter how things go make sure to post what is going on so we can help you further,
      Zac
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    6. #6
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      Oh, yeah, we understand that changes from the original contract are on our dime. That's fine. Although, I am thinking I might want to go with a drop in liner. Just heard about the ones birdman makes and I am intrigued. So we may be able to drop that cost (they will resell the old liner anyway, so no loss to them). They came by this morning and discussed it with us and they are OK with resizing the pond, again with us paying the difference.

      As for all of the research ahead of time, yeah, we kinda screwed up there. We made a rather naive assumption that a company that has been around for about 20 or so years would know what they are doing. Not being sarcastic, we actually did believe that and we were a bit stupid to do so. Due diligence was our responsibility and we failed there. Lesson learned.

      We will be taking on time on this now. Our kids are safe for now and we don't have to rush. Besides, they cannot even fit us in their schedule for another month, so more than enough time to properly plan.

      So given that we have some flexibility on this, and are willing to pay for additional equipment, does that alter any of your recommendations? (BTW, thank you for those recommendations)

      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      I don't want to overstep here, but I don't think you really have the option of changing the pond in anyway other than having them construct it properly. You signed off on the footprint, agreed to the depth, and they screwed up everything else I don't think they will be willing to increase the size whether it be depth or length just because the craftsmanship failed. This would require excavating/removing more earth which will add to the labor costs of the project. They are on the hook for the materials, but I can almost guarantee they will try to re-use the original liner (which based on the amount of wrinkles and folds inside the pond shouldn't be a problem) meaning the footprint cannot change. There shouldn't be a problem with that as long as they are careful when they take it apart.

      As for the filtration system...
      I hate bead filters personally and due to the fact that there is no pre-filter before the pump I think you should at least make that change. However this will have to be on your buck because the filter system did not fail. It is just not optimal for a koi pond, and the research into the filtration system should have been done before the project was started and contract signed. I know I sound harsh but these are just the facts. I have to deal with customers all the time that were not informed of proper filtration before their pond was built, and now need to spend lots of money fixing their previous mistakes. Based on the filter system that you do have I would not recommend a settling chamber but a vacuum pre-filter would be best.

      No matter how things go make sure to post what is going on so we can help you further,
      Zac

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

    7. #7
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rogerstigers View Post
      So if you are just beginning this saga, the precursor threads are:


      Here
      AND
      Here

      In a nutshell, we hired a local company to build our pond and they failed at it. They are honoring their warranty on craftsmanship and we are taking advantage of that to correct our mistake on size (we wanted 5000 and it was more like 3000 due to dimensions we gave them) and doing a much more robust filtering implementation.

      So the point of this thread is to brainstorm with the experts here and come up with a solid plan before they do ANY more work.

      You can see pictures of the original build here

      So here's what we are starting with. We want to increase the volume of the pond to 5000 gallons. Because of the sewer line running parallel to the pond, the only direction we can go is longer. Luckily there is room and adding 5 feet to each side would give us that volume. I think this would also merit adding a second skimmer (one on each narrow side) to handle the surface area.

      I am struggling on how to do the water return, though. I would love to bring it up in the center and then we can either do a fountain or jets or both, but I am also considering just a couple of side jets. I am also wondering if a 24' long pond would require two bottom drains.

      As this is a rectangular pond, 4 returns, one in each corner would be in order and yes, at that length 2 aerated bottom drains are definitely in order.

      As for filtering, we want to go ahead and keep the Challenger pallet and use it on the skimmers. The bottom drains will go to a gravity fed separator and then mechanical filtration of some sort. That part we still need to decide upon.

      Okay, the pallet filter would work great on a skimmer circuit, especially with two skimmers, both valved independently to control the flow from each. With two 4" bottom drains, gravity fed, I would highly recommend the UltraSieve III. This easily handles two bottom drains with a max flow rate of 7900gph! You mention mechanical filtration, but no bio filtration. Your Challenger will handle your mechanical fines filtration just fine. For bio, you could install one of Zac's custom shower units. It can be configured in several different ways for providing return of the filtered water to the pond. This should provide you with a very efficient system.

      So that's our current goal. These koi are our family, not "just fish", trophies, or inventory. We want them to have a good home to live in, room to grow, and something attractive to be a centerpiece for our landscaping.

      Basic Starting Specifications:

      Desired Volume: ~5000 gals
      Estimated Interior Dimensions: 24' x 6.5' with a depth of 5' (can vary , but must meet volume)how about 20'x6.5'x 6'total depth = 5850gal! Even better!!!
      Reinforced Cinder Block Wall construction with a 16" footer How thick? I'd suggest min. 6"thick with double course of #3 rebar!
      40 mil EPDM rubber liner with backing material
      Flagstone finish with smooth interior edges For the coping, you could use a stone called "Three Rivers tumbled" which doesn't have the sharp jagged edges
      2 Skimmer units integrated into the pond walls on the short sides Yes
      Will use existing Challenger 50 pallet to operate skimmers Yes
      Something for the bottom drain(s?)Two 4" aerated KoiToilet I bottom drain units
      Something for aeration.
      An 80litre air pump, like an Alita or Medo unit
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    8. #8
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rogerstigers View Post
      Thinking about another option.. rather than going longer, we can go deeper. 3 ft deeper will give us the extra 5000 gallons without adding to the footprint. In addition, it will put 5' of water below ground, which will help with the heat. Kinda liking that idea.

      someone double check my math, though, since that was my mistake in round 1. 14' x 6.5' x 8' = 729 cu.ft. = ~5400 gals.
      I suggested this above, but here it is again - 20'l x 6.5'w x 6' depth of water in pond so pond should be 6'4"-6'6" total depth = 5840gal! Still suggest two bottom drains though and the two skimmers!
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    9. #9
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      Changes on your own dime? That means that not only did they fail the first time, but they are getting a chance to possibly fail again, but with more of your money in hand. Thats a scary thought. I would just ask they come demo it, take all the waste and such and return your funds. If you are going to spend more money, I would spend it with another contractor. We have a lot of qualified people here that can help you review contracts/proposals. Your contractor may take that option to get out of there fast and easy.



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    10. #10
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      Koiman, I was thinking about a 12 inch depth on the footer. From all of the "how to build a cinder block wall" videos, this seemed pretty standard (also heard 8 inches). I am willing to listen to suggestions, though.

      I haven't decided on depth yet. I wouldn't mind deeper to allow for better insulation against the heat, but they also have a nice shade from the Pecan tree. Guess I need to look into the pros/cons of depth.

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rogerstigers View Post
      Koiman, I was thinking about a 12 inch depth on the footer. From all of the "how to build a cinder block wall" videos, this seemed pretty standard (also heard 8 inches). I am willing to listen to suggestions, though.

      I haven't decided on depth yet. I wouldn't mind deeper to allow for better insulation against the heat, but they also have a nice shade from the Pecan tree. Guess I need to look into the pros/cons of depth.
      Well, yes, for a stand alone block wall, above ground, a minimum of 12" is required, usually can be much more if used as a retaining wall. But, as this is below ground and will have weight bearing on both sides, 8" should be fine.
      Mike

      check out our website at: http://www.pond-life.net




      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    12. #12
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      Sounds like you guys have a handle on this now...I'm so glad! I like your ideas so far. The Ultrasieve is good, but if you can't spring for it, there are some DIY alternatives you could explore...hopefully you are talking to Birdman...good luck!

      Quote Originally Posted by Rogerstigers View Post
      Koiman, I was thinking about a 12 inch depth on the footer. From all of the "how to build a cinder block wall" videos, this seemed pretty standard (also heard 8 inches). I am willing to listen to suggestions, though.

      I haven't decided on depth yet. I wouldn't mind deeper to allow for better insulation against the heat, but they also have a nice shade from the Pecan tree. Guess I need to look into the pros/cons of depth.
      Vicki


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    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lunatoons View Post
      Sounds like you guys have a handle on this now...I'm so glad! I like your ideas so far. The Ultrasieve is good, but if you can't spring for it, there are some DIY alternatives you could explore...hopefully you are talking to Birdman...good luck!
      He has our number and we are planning on having a conversation to chat about options. I am really very interested in the drop in liner he makes. I have seem some of the stuff he has done and it is impressive.

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

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      So did a basic drawing of the pond in Google Sketchup because I wanted to get some fairly exact measurements on the footprint. Looks like in order to make the bricks fit with a 16" wide footer, I need to adjust the footprint a tad resulting in internal dimensions of 14'10" x 7' x 8' (deep). Going to keep the existing skimmer and run it by itself off the Challenger unit. Might expand to a second skimmer down the road a bit.

      There will be two bottom drains. I asked High Desert Koi (birdman) to give me a proposal of what he would use to filter the bottom drains.. probably a seive and fluid bed returning to three TPRs.

      As for the reconstruction, it appears that the water garden company will be hiring a concrete crew to build the walls this time. That will pretty much be the end of it for them. I am going to ask them to refund the liner, the flagstone, and the bottom drain and we will acquire those ourselves along with the new filter components. In the end, we will be paying a bit more ($2K - $4k) than we expected to do it the way we intended to do it in the first place, but we will have a LOT of filtration and a much higher level of confidence, so it will be a proper investment, I think. Room to grow, at least and more control over the outcome this time.

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

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      Just out of curiosity (and because I have been searching for 20 minutes and cannot really find an answer)... What goes in the middle if you just use a footer and not a slab? Do I just put the dirt back in and pack it down? Should I perhaps water it a bit and then pack it some more after the initial packing?

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by Rogerstigers View Post
      So did a basic drawing of the pond in Google Sketchup because I wanted to get some fairly exact measurements on the footprint. Looks like in order to make the bricks fit with a 16" wide footer, I need to adjust the footprint a tad resulting in internal dimensions of 14'10" x 7' x 8' (deep). Going to keep the existing skimmer and run it by itself off the Challenger unit. Might expand to a second skimmer down the road a bit.

      There will be two bottom drains. I asked High Desert Koi (birdman) to give me a proposal of what he would use to filter the bottom drains.. probably a seive and fluid bed returning to three TPRs.

      As for the reconstruction, it appears that the water garden company will be hiring a concrete crew to build the walls this time. That will pretty much be the end of it for them. I am going to ask them to refund the liner, the flagstone, and the bottom drain and we will acquire those ourselves along with the new filter components. In the end, we will be paying a bit more ($2K - $4k) than we expected to do it the way we intended to do it in the first place, but we will have a LOT of filtration and a much higher level of confidence, so it will be a proper investment, I think. Room to grow, at least and more control over the outcome this time.
      You seem to be more than willing to part with more money....much more than I would. Here's my suggestion. Let THEM pay for a new drop in liner - as long as they can give the proper dimensions. Let THEM pay to replace one bottom drain and you buy the second - if that is really necessary. Might not be, if the footprint is the same only deeper. You keep the old liner with the bottom drain. That would make a great QT down the road. And, let them foot the bill for more stone and keep what they can't reuse to make a nice little patio area around the new build. After all, you should be entitled to some compensation for all the trouble of relocating the fish, refilling the pond and basically starting over.

      I would not be so accommodating.
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    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by Joey S View Post
      You seem to be more than willing to part with more money....much more than I would. Here's my suggestion. Let THEM pay for a new drop in liner - as long as they can give the proper dimensions. Let THEM pay to replace one bottom drain and you buy the second - if that is really necessary. Might not be, if the footprint is the same only deeper. You keep the old liner with the bottom drain. That would make a great QT down the road. And, let them foot the bill for more stone and keep what they can't reuse to make a nice little patio area around the new build. After all, you should be entitled to some compensation for all the trouble of relocating the fish, refilling the pond and basically starting over.

      I would not be so accommodating.
      I hear you, but basically, given their terrible attitude (you don't need that, according to "our" experts you should, etc.) I don't want to buy any more equipment from them at all. I doubt they will easily refund labor costs and that was a third of the project ($5000). I really do not want to have a pile of stone in the backyard waiting for me to do something with, so I would rather they remove the stone completely.

      As for the money, so long as I can keep the cost CLOSE to the original price, I am OK with it. if it were another $5K, I would be a lot more upset. In any case, the owner is out till Monday, so I'll have to talk to her then. In the mean time, I am working on a model of the pond in Sketchup and talking to other vendors and reading threads here to try to get things planned a bit better. I am still kicking myself for not putting in more due diligence the first time around.

      As it is, though, I think I will still get a bit of a refund from them which I can use towards doing this properly.

      There is nothing good nor bad but that thinking makes it so - Billy S.

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      I would not be counting on a refund. They might say they will, but then try and get it.
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    19. #19
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      All I have to say about this is so far so good.. I'm a happy camper!! Rogers will give more details on what is going on, I need to add this for companies who don't give us what we wanted. hehehe my foot is very heavy...
      My Avatar has changed due to him growing up.

    20. #20
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      Well, basically, we have chatted with a recommended pond builder in the area. let me tell ya, night and day difference. He is actually CONSULTING with us. He is advising us on the mistakes made and lessons to learn and has been recommended by other koi owners in the area. Ironically he used to work for the same company that we originally hired and left them so he could learn to build koi ponds properly. He is putting together a proposal for us for finishing this out.

      Interestingly, he said once he started building actual Koi ponds, he made the same mistakes that were made on our pond. It was a painful lesson for him, but he learned from it. We are still doing our due diligence regarding references. We need to get out and see some of his ponds and I am still working on mock ups and measurements to ensure that we are getting what we need to get a safe and healthy home for our kids. So far, so good, though. Guess we'll have more of an update on Monday. Happy weekend, ya'll!!

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