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    Thread: Diy rdf

    1. #301
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Removed the drum ring and epoxied the segments together with it clamped in a proper circle. My mistake was assuming the drum was round and using it as the template. As it was, the drum was out-of-round by about 0.6", which is fine when holding liquids but not as a rotating assembly. The bolt holes will be chased or redrilled, rebolted to further strengthen it, then forced onto the misshaped drum.


      On the front plate I am using three rollers two on bottom and one on top left or right depending on rotation of the drum. You don’t have to put the roller but definitely put threaded holes for the shoulder bolt just in case the drum wants to pop out of place when is rotating.


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      Zoran

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    2. #302
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      This drum is testing me and is a good reminder of what "good enough" engineering is; the drums work great for their intended task, but outside of that, not so much. They aren't round, the surfaces aren't square to each other, the wall thickness varies tremendously, and the bottom is anything but flat. As a result, once the fabricated assembly is placed on the rollers, it doesn't run true; the open end flange is egg-shaped and the gear assembly doesn't sit square to the drum's axis. Oh I'll make it work, by adding shims and dowel pins to force things square; I just wish I didn't have to do that. In the back of my mind are other ways of doing things and while they'd be better, they're all more expensive.


      The thickness of my drums is consistent. Top and bottom are molded separately and then welded together to the middle portion. Bottom of the drum where the gear is located is nice and even and inside I have 12”x12” Garolite piece for support and stability.

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      Zoran

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    3. #303
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      I don't doubt it; it's no doubt the consequences of me using a traditional 55-gallon drum, warts and all, and something for potential builders to be aware of. Glueing and rebolting the ring assembly solved my issues.

      On a different note, how did you plan to get the drum out with a 36"-long waste collection tray running neatly the full length of the drum, remove the Garolite base, drum, and waste tray as a unit?
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      Last edited by kimini; 12-02-2016 at 10:01 PM.
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    4. #304
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      I don't doubt it; it's no doubt the consequences of me using a traditional 55-gallon drum, warts and all, and something for potential builders to be aware of. Glueing and rebolting the ring assembly solved my issues.

      On a different note, how did you plan to get the drum out with a 36"-long waste collection tray running neatly the full length of the drum, remove the Garolite base, drum, and waste tray as a unit?

      I have a plate with 4.5” hole cut on 5 degree angle mounted where the two red arrows are pointing. The tray is held in place by this plate. The front where the blue arrow is pointing is cut so you can slide the tray in.

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      This is the tray...


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      Zoran

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    5. #305
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      Ah, I see, so yours comes straight out the front, thanks for the clarification.

      How tall is your IBC (outside dimension)? I cut this one down to the top-most rib so it's currently 36" (because at the time I cut it I didn't know how much to remove so left it tall).

      How full do you plan to run the unit? What I mean is, how much of the drum will be submerged? I'm assuming the water level must be right below tray elevation, since the drain pipe comes straight out the side of the IBC, yes? Or, is the outgoing end of the drain below water level and you ran it through a Uniseal?

      My biggest challenge when designing is to not fixate on one solution and to keep an open mind to alternate approaches. People think I'm smart because I designed a car from scratch, yet I know there are people out there who would look at it and ask, "how come you didn't do it this other way that's simpler, cheaper, and more reliable" and I realize they're right. Thanks for the continued help!
      Last edited by kimini; 12-03-2016 at 04:25 PM.
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    6. #306
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Ah, I see, so yours comes straight out the front, thanks for the clarification.

      How tall is your IBC (outside dimension)? I cut this one down to the top-most rib so it's currently 36" (because at the time I cut it I didn't know how much to remove so left it tall).

      How full do you plan to run the unit? What I mean is, how much of the drum will be submerged? I'm assuming the water level must be right below tray elevation, since the drain pipe comes straight out the side of the IBC, yes? Or, is the outgoing end of the drain below water level and you ran it through a Uniseal?

      My biggest challenge when designing is to not fixate on one solution and to keep an open mind to alternate approaches. People think I'm smart because I designed a car from scratch, yet I know there are people out there who would look at it and ask, "how come you didn't do it this other way that's simpler, cheaper, and more reliable" and I realize they're right. Thanks for the continued help!
      My IBC is 34” with the skid on the bottom. If I keep the front open then the water level will be 3” to 4” billow top of the tray or I can seal the front with plate and use uniseal for the drain pipe. There is not much room to run the drain down. The 90’s take too much room unless you design special drain pipe.


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      This is the back plate where the drum rotates.

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      Zoran

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    7. #307
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      Thanks for the pictures and yeah, I thought it through after I posted the question. It's interesting how different our IBC containers are; yours is formed to fit around the support frame with definite ribs molded into it. Mine has nothing like that and is just a big floppy "bag"; having ribs would have made it stiffer, but oh well, your type wasn't available around here.

      On the front plate I am using three rollers two on bottom and one on top left or right depending on rotation of the drum. You don’t have to put the roller but definitely put threaded holes for the shoulder bolt just in case the drum wants to pop out of place when is rotating.
      Ah, that's what that's for; I kept looking at those holes in your pictures wondering what they were for, yes that's a good idea. I'm thinking of having rollers at the gear end for lower friction, though I should at least mock up the Garolite bushing block to see how it does, maybe it'll be good enough. My concern is that if and when the screen starts to load up and the drum gets heavy, the friction at the gear end could become substantial; I think you mentioned that in a previous post. Why did you go with a bushing block instead of rollers like at the open end? Just curious.
      Last edited by kimini; 12-03-2016 at 11:48 PM.
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    8. #308
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      I'm thinking of having rollers at the gear end for lower friction, though I should at least mock up the Garolite bushing block to see how it does, maybe it'll be good enough. My concern is that if and when the screen starts to load up and the drum gets heavy, the friction at the gear end could become substantial; I think you mentioned that in a previous post. Why did you go with a bushing block instead of rollers like at the open end? Just curious.
      You can make the Garolite plate like bearing. After you put the drum in place you drop the plastic balls through the hole on top.

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      Last edited by Zoki51; 12-04-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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    9. #309
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      Hah, that bearing idea is very clever!

      I added a stainless frame to the baseplate to make the assembly independent of the IBC (I suspect my IBC container is a lot more flexible than your). Hopefully it'll make it easier to service or modify later on.

      Regarding the chain, I'm using the all-plastic part, McMaster #6846K4 which is rated at 45 lbs; I hope that wasn't a mistake. In hindsight the all-stainless chain probably should have been used but the plastic one is here I'll give it a try. Bearings at the small end will hopefully reduce the rolling friction enough to make it last.
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    10. #310
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Hah, that bearing idea is very clever!

      I added a stainless frame to the baseplate to make the assembly independent of the IBC (I suspect my IBC container is a lot more flexible than your). Hopefully it'll make it easier to service or modify later on.

      Regarding the chain, I'm using the all-plastic part, McMaster #6846K4 which is rated at 45 lbs; I hope that wasn't a mistake. In hindsight the all-stainless chain probably should have been used but the plastic one is here I'll give it a try. Bearings at the small end will hopefully reduce the rolling friction enough to make it last.
      Great job!!!
      Too bad we are too far away from each other…..Any chance moving my way LOL
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    11. #311
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zoki51 View Post
      Great job!!!
      Too bad we are too far away from each other…..Any chance moving my way LOL
      You know, I was thinking that it's a lot warmer out here (SoCal) so it only makes sense for you to move this way
      Last edited by kimini; 12-07-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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      Added rollers to the closed end of the drum; it spins a lot easier now. Gear drive is mounted and working, and today the waste tray was bent and mounted, though I'm unsure how to terminate it, probably to a bottom-mounted 2" pipe fitting.

      Next up is making the spray bar. Initially I planned to use our 60-psi tap water but with 15 spray nozzles but worry a bit about the flow rate causing pressure to drop off. A pressure gauge will answer that when the time comes.

      Also waiting for the filter fabric; I'm going with that instead of stainless screen due to anecdotal stories that it filters better. It's also far cheaper than stainless so we'll see how long it lasts.
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    13. #313
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    14. #314
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      Spray bar and solenoid valve mounted. Tomorrow the nozzles will be added, the float switch, and hopefully the filter fabric added to the drum. It's getting there. Our black Lab-mix wonders why I'm not spending more time with him.
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      So after installing the filter screen and constructing the controller, it's virtually done other than plumbing and wiring the unit into the pond. Things I've learned:

      #1. Do NOT use a typical 55-gallon drum like I did, with a smaller diameter near both the top and bottom of the drum. The result is that the filter material ends up with folds and wrinkles. As a result it was also a real pain to install, taking six hours.

      #2. I currently have mixed feelings about using polyester filter cloth rather than stainless. "If" it lasts it was a good choice, and "if" I had used a straight-sided drum it would have been easy to install. I worry that the force of the water flexing it back and forth may cause it to prematurely fail but I guess we'll see. It is rather delicate and I ruined the first one by giving it just a little tug to try and remove a wrinkle, grrr. My present recommendation is use a straight-sided drum like Zoki51 did; I should have known better. Due to the taper of the drum I'm already considering alternatives, either switching to a straight drum, or going full custom. The rest of the unit is promising though and the nice thing is that the new drum would drop right in. We'll see how long this setup lasts.

      The controller consists of a small 12V switching power supply (amazingly inexpensive ($32) for what it is), a sprinkler valve, wired in parallel with the drum motor, a timer module referenced earlier, and associated connectors and such. The binding posts are so current draw can be monitored - the project took me back to when I was a geeky teenager building all sorts of electronic stuff
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    16. #316
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      i think you will have issues with the polyester filter cloth on the inside of the drum. do you have any attachment of the cloth horizontally or is it just on the perimeter of the drum. if its just the outsides i feel it will start sagging..

      have you tested the motor and drum setup with the new controller? it will be intersecting to see how well it works with and without a load.

      very nicely built you can see you have planned well, i hope it works as good as it looks
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    17. #317
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      The filter fabric isn't on the inside of the drum per se; it's sandwiched between an inner and outer drum, see Post #295. I ran the motor with the controller and it works fine no-load. Fully-loaded shouldn't be much different since the controlling element is a low-resistance solid state switch. The only potential loose end is whether it contains back-EMF protection; there can be a significant voltage spike that occurs when switching off inductive loads.

      (The vendor replied, saying it does contain back-EMF protection, so we're good to go!)
      Last edited by kimini; 12-21-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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      UPDATE:

      The drum filter is now operational*. Observations:

      1. The sprayer is very loud, to me at least; it kind of spoils the serenity of the pond plus I don't want to annoy the neighbors. I'm thinking about fabricating a lid or cover, maybe using foil-covered 2"-thick wall foam.

      2. It cycles more often than expected, whatever that means. It's probably the consequence of having never run anything other than a settling tank, so there's all sorts of crap - figuratively and literally - to be filtered out. I assume over the coming weeks it'll calm down and the cycle time will slow.

      3. It's surprisingly "moody"; sometimes it'll cycle within 5 minutes and the next time it might be 30 minutes. It might be due to the ring on the drum not being perfectly square (back to my rant about "good enough" plastic drum manufacturing). Because the ring isn't perfectly square, there's a small gap that travels around with the rotation. Depending where the gap ends up, above or below water, it speeds up or slows down how long it takes for the filter to load up. The lower the water flow the more that matters.

      4. I never really thought through the consequences of running a drum filter. Right now, ever 10 minutes or so it produces about a gallon of icky water that has to go "somewhere." If the yard was finished it would run to plants but until the yard is sorted it's getting dumped into the storm drain, which in my case, runs out to the street. Not sure how much the neighbors will appreciate stinky green water flowing by their driveways - maybe the sound of the sprayer will distract them.

      5. The previous system was nearly passive with a settling tank and moving-bed bio. About the worst that could happen was for the air pump to quit. Now, I wake up at night wondering if: the float switch has stuck, the chain broke, the solenoid valve failed, the timer module shorted out, a wire broke, or a million other things that can cause a small disaster. Because my setup is pump-fed for now, I probably need to add overflow ports so that if the filter doesn't successfully trigger the sprayer, the incoming water can bypass the drum so it doesn't overflow. The point is, if you're going to use a drum filter, fabricated or bought, know that you're buying into a system with a much higher chance of failure and the need to keep a close eye on the unit.

      *The drum filter is currently being used with the old pond, where the bottom drain feeds the pump which pushes water to the drum filter. The new pond will gravity-feed the filter.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-03-2017 at 11:18 PM.
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    19. #319
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      UPDATE:

      The drum filter is now operational*. Observations:

      1. The sprayer is very loud, to me at least; it kind of spoils the serenity of the pond plus I don't want to annoy the neighbors. I'm thinking about fabricating a lid or cover, maybe using foil-covered 2"-thick wall foam.

      2. It cycles more often than expected, whatever that means. It's probably the consequence of having never run anything other than a settling tank, so there's all sorts of crap - figuratively and literally - to be filtered out. I assume over the coming weeks it'll calm down and the cycle time will slow.

      3. It's surprisingly "moody"; sometimes it'll cycle within 5 minutes and the next time it might be 30 minutes. It might be due to the ring on the drum not being perfectly square (back to my rant about "good enough" plastic drum manufacturing). Because the ring isn't perfectly square, there's a small gap that travels around with the rotation. Depending where the gap ends up, above or below water, it speeds up or slows down how long it takes for the filter to load up. The lower the water flow the more that matters.

      4. I never really thought through the consequences of running a drum filter. Right now, ever 10 minutes or so it produces about a gallon of icky water that has to go "somewhere." If the yard was finished it would run to plants but until the yard is sorted it's getting dumped into the storm drain, which in my case, runs out to the street. Not sure how much the neighbors will appreciate stinky green water flowing by their driveways - maybe the sound of the sprayer will distract them.

      5. The previous system was nearly passive with a settling tank and moving-bed bio. About the worst that could happen was for the air pump to quit. Now, I wake up at night wondering if: the float switch has stuck, the chain broke, the solenoid valve failed, the timer module shorted out, a wire broke, or a million other things that can cause a small disaster. Because my setup is pump-fed for now, I probably need to add overflow ports so that if the filter doesn't successfully trigger the sprayer, the incoming water can bypass the drum so it doesn't overflow. The point is, if you're going to use a drum filter, fabricated or bought, know that you're buying into a system with a much higher chance of failure and the need to keep a close eye on the unit.

      *The drum filter is currently being used with the old pond, meaning the bottom drain feeds the pump directly and is pushing water to the drum filter. When the new pond is ready, the drum filter will be gravity-fed.
      1) i would strongly recommend a lid not only will it quiet the spraying noise it will also save on over spray saving you water in the long run

      2) once the drum filter has cleaned the pond to the smallest participial not allowed to pass through the drum the cleaning cycles will extent in time intervals. now this is all based on the amount of koi and the rate at witch you feed. (example) mine cycled every 5 minuted for the first day then slowly extended to 15 minutes between cleanings now my average cleaning cycle is every 30 to 40 minutes. that is with 10 koi ranging from 12" to 18" and a good feeding rateabout 5 cups a day.

      3) maybe think about adding a seal to help correct the open area issue. this may be a short term fix until you remake a better drum.

      4) i think you should rethink the nozzle size and output. my drum is about 1/4 the size of yours and i am and has 7 spray nozzles, after a full 1.5 rotation of cleaning i have less then 3 cups of dirty water. so if you use .5 to 1 rotations for cleanings you should be around 6 cups of dirty water

      5) i think this goes through everyone's mind trust in your build and do add the overflow holes. i know i had my doubts about mine when i first fired it up but after a few days i knew it was good to go. now that doesn't mean down the road you wont have i hick up every now and then but that is part of the fun lol


      over all i think you did a great job and you will be very satisfied with the filter.. congrats
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    20. #320
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      Thanks for the comments!

      1. There's not a lot of overspray from the spray bar but yes, a lid is needed regardless.

      2. There are about a dozen variables that contribute to how often the sprayer cycles and I'm still playing around with it. As said above, it was cycling very frequently for the first few days. I tried backing off on the water flow and at first it slowed the cycle rate by about 50%, but now it isn't cycling at all. Every time I checked it, the inlet side was about 2" higher than the outlet where it reached an equilibrium. Apparently it's a balance of water leaking and not enough particulates having plugging up the filter enough to raise the inlet level that last bit needed to trigger a cycle. I'll try varying flow rate and/or water level, as having it cycle at least once an hour seems more appropriate. There's no way it's fully cleaned the pond so quickly.

      3. Regarding the seal, I'm still working on that. At first I tried a rubber strip but it wouldn't stay flat due to being too low a durometer. Next I tried a strip of PVC but it's too stiff and not conforming well enough to the curved wall. The answer is to probably combine the two.

      4. Regarding the sprayers, Mine are 0.5 GPM@40 psi; your nozzles must be much smaller. For your case, 3/16 gallons = Spray rate x 7 nozzles x 0.25 minute (a guess), so I get about 0.1GPM for your nozzles, is that correct? That corresponds to something like the 30995K31 sold by Mcmaster.com.

      Thanks again.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-04-2017 at 03:55 PM.
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