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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: How do scales grow?

    1. #1
      Longfin Lover's Avatar
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      How do scales grow?

      I posted this elsewhere and it was suggested that it should be here. So here is my question about scale growth.
      How do the scales on a Koi grow?
      Just trying to figure out how patterns grow on a koi. Do the scales increase/ mulitply in all directions? Or do new ones come up and add on towards the tail? Or do the scales just grow larger each year like a tree so you have the same number of scales?

      What I am asking has to do with the leading edge of colour. Is the edge closest to the head permanent and the edge closer to the tail ever expanding? Does the number of rows increase from top to bottom?

      Thanks for any info.

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      I deleted the other thread since there were no replies and is now a duplicate.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    3. #3
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      That I am aware of, no additional scales are added during growth of a koi, or really any fish for that matter. They simply continue to enlarge as the fish grow. The "leading edge" or root of the scale also grows in size and thickness. As to color, well, this is where strong, deeper rooted pigmentation comes into play. In some cases, I'm sure you've heard the term "hard beni" discussed. It does not have the ability to stretch as the koi grows and thus, the color pattern tends to start breaking apart, especially with fish that are pushed for fast growth. For the beni to continue to grow with the growth of the fish, it needs elasticity, also known as Nerikomi. The color that is elastic will show in the fall as darker coloration in the center of the scale, with a lighter tone around the outer parts. As the fish grows over the first 4-6 years, if it is of high quality, you will see this trend each growing season. This is a good thing. As the fish reaches it full mature growth potential, the beni will begin to fill in thicker, rendering all the scales within a pattern area the same, or very close to it. There's much more to this that just a brief, simple explanation. You really have to see it first hand to understand what I'm referring to.
      Mike

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    4. #4
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      So....ummm is this what I think you said? Each scale expands out (wider) and grows back towards the tail with the root closer to the head. The root or base gets thicker and the colour denser in the middle sort of like a fingernail? As each scale gets thicker with age, the whole area if it it is good would be a denser colour?

      So there are no new scales just expanding ones. Do fish replace lost scales with new ones from an injury?
      But some scales loose colour and then some get it back too?
      Thanks for any info...just trying to understand.

      proudly Canadian

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by Longfin Lover View Post
      So....ummm is this what I think you said? Each scale expands out (wider) and grows back towards the tail with the root closer to the head. The root or base gets thicker and the colour denser in the middle sort of like a fingernail? As each scale gets thicker with age, the whole area if it it is good would be a denser colour?

      Actually, each scale expends it's total circumference. The root doesn't really get "closer" to the head. As the entire scale increases in size, the color pigment within each scale "stretches" causing the outer area of the scale to become lighter than the center of the scale. This is referred to as "Hoshi" in Japanese. Yes, in very high quality fish, this "stretching of the color" can be observed in some cases up tp 5-6 yrs of age. The longer it creates hoshi, the better the quality of the fish as it reaches maturity and beyond. Once the color becomes homogenous, due to adding layer upon layer of color each year, the color will appear deeper, just like spray painting a car with 10 or more coats of clear lacquer to allow a sense of "depth" to be observed.

      So there are no new scales just expanding ones. Do fish replace lost scales with new ones from an injury?

      Yes and no! Young fish, usually under 3 years old, can replace lost scales more easily than more mature fish. Fish at 3 yrs and older have a very difficult time replacing scales. This is why, as a fish gets very large it is assumed that it's age is relative and if there are no scales missing or deformed, this is also considered a factor in judging. It's not easy to maintain a fish throughout it's life, to say, age 10, without losing a scale or two along the way.


      But some scales loose colour and then some get it back too?

      Again, yes and no. If a scale loses it's beni, or red coloration, it is usually gone for good. There are a couple of circumstances where it could return, but they are not the norm. As to sumi/black, if a fish is young, say 4 yrs or younger, sumi can be rather unstable in it's appearance. It can rise and fall based on growth, water temperature and certainly water conditions. Learning how to look at sumi on a young fish to judge it's inherent "quality" is a lesson for another day/time. But, if you can learn to discern the difference, you can end up with some very nice quality fish.
      Thanks for any info...just trying to understand.
      You're welcome. Hope that helps some!
      Mike

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    6. #6
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      Scale replacement has to do with the scale root. If the root is intact, and the fish is young, then odds are it will regrow a lost scale. If the scale root is lost or damaged, no mater the age, then it will not grow a replacement scale.

      I will also say that scales that are replaced are often larger and or not uniform to the surrounding scales on the fish. It all depends on if the scale root was disturbed or not.

      The same basic principles are true of human fingernails and hair follicles.

      Brad










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    7. #7
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      Are not scales very similar to fingernails?
      Need more Koi

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      Very interesting. Thank you for explaining it so well.

      proudly Canadian

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      Fish scales do not have roots. Fish scales are not particularly fingernail like and are actually more akin to your cornea. Scales initially form inside of the dermal layer as migrating scleroblasts are guided into a checkerboard pattern apparently directed by the overlying epidermis. Scale pockets are formed, embedded in the dermis, in which the scale’s three layers are laid down and expanded. Fish scales grow at their margins and in base thickness over time and if lost are generally re-grown although the full size and coloration may take considerable time, if ever, to be indistinguishably replaced.

      www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/descarga/paper/15272388

    10. #10
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      I referenced the wrong paper by Sire, it a good one but not much about scales!

      This is the one: www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/descarga/paper/15272389

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    11. #11
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      [COLOR="rgb(0, 0, 0)"]These links don't seem to work for me. I click on them and it flashes right back to your post.[/COLOR]
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob Forbis View Post
      I referenced the wrong paper by Sire, it a good one but not much about scales!

      This is the one: www.ijdb.ehu.es/web/descarga/paper/15272389

      proudly Canadian

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      They work for me. Are you on a phone? You may have to copy the link and paste the url.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    13. #13
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      The links are to pdfs.

      You cannot know where the love of koi will take you. Some years ago I became interested in the question of “what is ginrin?” and “exactly where is it located in koi skin or scale?”. I asked everybody at shows, online, by email, by phone calls. A few people (Waddy for example) told me straight up “don’t know exactly”. Most came up with answers, every answer that you can think of and some that would never occur to you, but there was no consensus whatsoever. Obviously most people didn’t see it as important; surprisingly some people became angry with me. So I looked deeper, I examined gin asagi with a pick and a microscope. I corresponded with Lia Addadi a crystallographer that studied guanine crystals in koi (first paper on subject: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/cg0704753 ). I found that diamond gin rin is a single layer of dorsally oriented iridophores located immediately beneath the scale pocket whose crystalline platelets are further positioned by the scale. The reason I mention this is that of all the people I asked, and I do mean all, not that I knew it at the time, but only one person gave that as the answer, none other than Russell Peters!

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    14. #14
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      I went to a lecture once about the cellular structure of color in koi. It was pretty interesting, and while I don’t know if I remember all the details I do remember this much.

      Basically beni and sumi are color cells (melanin) that group together and look like a solid color. The more of the cells the deeper or thicker the color. Beni cells are the larger cells and don’t change much individually but more of them can pack together to look deeper or thicker. Sumi cells are smaller and also group together, but individually can shrink or expand due to various reasons. This shrinking of the sumi cell is what we see when we say the sumi “went down” into the skin. That’s also how it “comes up”, when it looks like the sumi came back it really is the individual cells expanding and therefore getting closer to the surface. So the sumi that is down really never leaves, it is just individual shrinking cells.
      Beni cells don’t do that, so when they go away (I’m assuming the cell then dies or is absorbed by the koi) they are really gone.

      We saw microscopic pics of sumi cells and when large look kinda cloud shaped, and when small, look like little black multi-pointed stars.
      I don’t remember if they gather mostly in the skin, or the scales or both. I also don't know exactly how the scales grow, but it seems like that question was already answered, so I guess I do know now!
      Regards,BarbJ
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    15. #15
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      Now I have some reading to do. Any more info on the colours of koi are really appreciated!
      Thanks for your replies.

      proudly Canadian

    16. #16
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      Some reading regarding koi colors? Here is a “classic”:
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...19/pdf/233.pdf

      And here is a mind expander!:
      http://www.biomedcentral.com/content...-2148-7-74.pdf

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