• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 29

    Thread: Female Kohaku Oyagoi?

    1. #1
      abuchi123's Avatar
      abuchi123 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      3,688

      Female Kohaku Oyagoi?

      Just wondering, will a fish like this one make a good female oyagoi?
      Attached Images Attached Images  

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      3,129
      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      Just wondering, will a fish like this one make a good female oyagoi?
      Others here with more experience can answer this better than I. Perhaps it would depend on your other options. But I think this koi has good body conformation, and the white nose is a positive.

    3. #3
      abuchi123's Avatar
      abuchi123 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      3,688
      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      Others here with more experience can answer this better than I. Perhaps it would depend on your other options. But I think this koi has good body conformation, and the white nose is a positive.
      Exactly. This little guy's conformation stood out among the uglies. The shiroji looks ok. I am not too sure about the beni quality, though.

    4. #4
      Roger's Avatar
      Roger is offline Senior Member
      is a mad scientist
       
      Feeling:
      Crazy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Hawaii
      Posts
      666
      It takes a lot of time, money, and effort to raise a healthy spawn. You can increase your chance of producing fry with good pattern, shioji, and body confirmation by knowing the bloodline. Professional breeders use offspring from world champions and a lot of koi they produce win at koi shows. If the pair of kohaku you breed carry championship blood line, you got a shot at bringing back a champion from the gene pool. The main thing is to use good bloodlines and do not pair brother and sister from the same spawn. Also, the body and fin must be straight with no deformity. In addition, they should have red that doesn't fade and white skin. I think the koi in the picture meet those qualifications. However, the question is do you know the bloodline?

      A quote from Isa Koi Farm, "We think there is no effective way to breed Nishikigoi. I said this because a female Nishikigoi spawns 300,000 to 1,000,000 eggs during spawning season. However only about 100 to a 1,000 Nishikigoi eggs will get through the culling process. Likewise, if a Nishikigoi breeder can produce one ideal Nishikigoi in his life, he is lucky."
      Last edited by Roger; 01-02-2014 at 03:44 AM.

    5. #5
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2013
      Location
      Just Up the Road Past The Black Stump
      Posts
      1,057
      abuchi123, your Koi looks nice I guess the main question is: do you know it's parentage and can you cross her with a male (or 2) that is related - even if only distantly? If not, then you enter the world of 'pot-luck' (as KoiGirl would say... Flock Spawn territory lol)

      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      and do not pair brother and sister from the same spawn.
      Actually Roger, that is exactly what you should do

      By breeding your F1's (which are the off-spring of your parent Koi and are siblings) you then produce your F2's. Once you have your F2's you can do a few things... breed back to the Parents (P1's) to produce PF1's (or is it FP1's.. can never get my Ps and Fs right lol) or breed the F2's to create your F3's and so on... or you might want to try and find a related Koi (1/2 sibling, Grandparent, Aunt or Uncle lol) and breed to that. I'm sure others can explain the 'why's and where-fores' better than I can). One of the worst things you can do is out-cross too early - just makes a big mess again lol
      ......

      The Ki Shusui Autumn Harvest 2013!


      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...56#post2338156

      Outstanding Effort by All the Ki Kichi Team!

      ..........................

    6. #6
      Roger's Avatar
      Roger is offline Senior Member
      is a mad scientist
       
      Feeling:
      Crazy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Hawaii
      Posts
      666
      I plan on breeding siblings back to parents to reestablish lines, but I had a bad experience with a brother and sister pair (95% of the fry were deformed).

    7. #7
      Bunyip is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2013
      Location
      Just Up the Road Past The Black Stump
      Posts
      1,057
      Yes, that can happen Roger - but breeding sibling to sibling didn't create the deformities, all it did was bring hidden issues to the fore. And this is exactly why it is standard breeding practice (across all animals really) to breed sibling to sibling - it immediately highlights any issues so they can be avoided in subsequent breedings (ie don't use those parents together again because they have 'issues'!) and it also has the positive effect of bringing to the fore good qualities very quickly!
      ......

      The Ki Shusui Autumn Harvest 2013!


      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...56#post2338156

      Outstanding Effort by All the Ki Kichi Team!

      ..........................

    8. #8
      Roger's Avatar
      Roger is offline Senior Member
      is a mad scientist
       
      Feeling:
      Crazy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Hawaii
      Posts
      666
      Thanks Bunyip, I might try pairing brother and sister on my omosako and dainichi showa project to set the cross into one and to bring out better qualities.
      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      Yes, that can happen Roger - but breeding sibling to sibling didn't create the deformities, all it did was bring hidden issues to the fore. And this is exactly why it is standard breeding practice (across all animals really) to breed sibling to sibling - it immediately highlights any issues so they can be avoided in subsequent breedings (ie don't use those parents together again because they have 'issues'!) and it also has the positive effect of bringing to the fore good qualities very quickly!
      Last edited by Roger; 01-02-2014 at 04:23 AM.

    9. #9
      wayne1's Avatar
      wayne1 is offline Supporting Member
      is Old boy
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      May 2011
      Location
      The Gower SOUTH WALES UK
      Posts
      1,384
      Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
      Thanks Bunyip, I might try pairing brother and sister on my omosako and dainichi showa project to set the cross into one and to bring out better qualities.
      You could try ''AKEMI KI GOI '' ! copy a good fishes gene and start your very own line ,with Kohaku you need to realize Sanke blood is there so look at the eyes if you have splits in the centre and red and black and blue backed eyes this tells you have sanke blood in your Kohaku ! which is normal as they are the most related ,new research has just been papered ,and concludes this .
      so its all on your brood fish and what they produce as you won't know what this Kohaku will produce as its only half of the gene pool .
      By using a Akemi ki goi (recessive fish) you increase the chances of getting better fish ,and its only 85% recessive so not 100% but a lot less culling and work but not all will be show quality !.
      similar methods with UV- light have been and are still used today to try and replicate fish ,but this old way in my opinion is still the best way! .
      but its still needs work as you cannot see all the genes just by looking at a koi brood fish ,and deep within they will carry parent fish and grand parent deformities that will come out in future generations later down the line .
      So using the best fish you can in the start and not using doitsu leather nude without using scaled genes is essential in making and keeping a strong line !,so you may find even pairing scaled to scaled fish producing leather and mirrors type koi ,and you won't know till a pairing is done and the results are in front of you to see .
      So creating a line takes time but with modern techniques can be done in 12 months with light manipulation .

    10. #10
      mrbradleybradley is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2005
      Location
      Sydney, Australia
      Posts
      71
      here we go again LOL, the use of Ki goi will not favour the odds in a pairing. But since it was asked about the value as an oyagoi, rather than the role it might play in establishing a line breeding program, it is better to answered the question asked.

      the same answer applies to any koi selected for breeding. The koi must bring along a concentration of desired traits within the phenotype and genotype. The more traits you like for your goals, the more valuable as a parent koi. Once you are happy with what you see, there is some value in knowing what the lineage of the koi is, as some of those genes might be carried, but not expressed. Those characteristics might be expressed in the baby koi. So this might change your expectations of what other features the koi may bring.

      The next important determination of the value of a koi as a parent is the results from test spawnings. A koi might be a valuable parent when paired with certain koi only. So you need to work out which set 'clicks' the best.

      And the value of a koi as a parent is always going to depend on the skill of the breeder, to raise enough fry and know how to cull. The value of a perfectly good oyagoi will only be realised by how good the breeder can maximise outcomes.
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      wayne1's Avatar
      wayne1 is offline Supporting Member
      is Old boy
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      May 2011
      Location
      The Gower SOUTH WALES UK
      Posts
      1,384
      Ki goi will only add yellow ,the important part is enhancing what you have got with a Akemi ki goi the red eyed version ! that's a important part also this type helps with size keeping and skin quality and keeping the pattern on top ,also another important part when breeding Kohaku .
      and as you have Quite rightly said it all starts with the brood fish you pick as a high Quality koi its not always the case but picking a good pattern and body conformation is paramount to start with .
      and then keep building desired traits of that line .
      I think what your trying to say is it still takes a fair time to find out which fish are best used as the results come as the fry grow out !.
      but Akemi ki goi will enhance any breeding of any line and without the need for much culling ,but that's only with pure bred Akemi ki goi and of the right type as there are also many to be had and yes its the skill in knowing and using them to your advantage in breeding ,as with any breeding its not just about one fish many play a role as you progress .
      oh and its nice to see you back after a while Bradley !.
      I don't know to profess about everything koi, and we learn every day ! but you must agree ''Akemi ki goi '' can be used to your advantage at certain stages of improving a line if needed in that line as it gets more inbred and looses size and frame and keeping colour on top of koi (certain types ) and skin lustre and in making a metallic line quicker.
      but that's my own conclusions after 39 years koi breeding in the UK with this rare type of koi coming from Asagi and Kohaku in its linage and most pure type of koi to be produced since 1930.
      And it was used by breeders for this purpose to improve breeding of koi and it is still today by many breeders ,its the real Holy Grail of koi but like any line of koi these days its only good by its breeding and the few that breed the best ones like Otsuka ,and Marusaka !.
      And I only pass on my conclusions after practical knowledge to help others in their quest for koi .
      and yes its all down to the right culling and this takes years to learn !.

    12. #12
      abuchi123's Avatar
      abuchi123 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      3,688
      Quote Originally Posted by Bunyip View Post
      abuchi123, your Koi looks nice I guess the main question is: do you know it's parentage and can you cross her with a male (or 2) that is related - even if only distantly? If not, then you enter the world of 'pot-luck' (as KoiGirl would say... Flock Spawn territory
      Hi Bunyip

      Just to clatify, this fish is not mine. It is still being auctioned on Kodama Koi. What caught my eyes was her conformation.

      My thinking was, her pattern most likely have gotten her culled for wholesale. However, there are other qualities about this fish that makes her interesting.

    13. #13
      rainblood's Avatar
      rainblood is offline Assembler of Water Droplets
      is The Plantinator
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      Valhalla
      Posts
      16,142
      What do you see in the conformation?
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    14. #14
      abuchi123's Avatar
      abuchi123 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      3,688
      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post
      What do you see in the conformation?
      This is a 13" fish. Most fish in this size range on Kodama do not have tails and bodies looking this strong. Keep in mind that the photo was taken with the Kodama camera angle. I believe that the body is longer and the tail is stronger than appeared in the phto. The head also looks big and square with eyes pretty far apart.

      That's my takes. Go ahead and stone me.

    15. #15
      rainblood's Avatar
      rainblood is offline Assembler of Water Droplets
      is The Plantinator
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      Valhalla
      Posts
      16,142
      Quote Originally Posted by abuchi123 View Post
      This is a 13" fish. Most fish in this size range on Kodama do not have tails and bodies looking this strong. Keep in mind that the photo was taken with the Kodama camera angle. I believe that the body is longer and the tail is stronger than appeared in the phto. The head also looks big and square with eyes pretty far apart.

      That's my takes. Go ahead and stone me.
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    16. #16
      mrbradleybradley is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2005
      Location
      Sydney, Australia
      Posts
      71
      I know you will bang on forever about the wonderful use of albino. Whatever conclusion you think, I cannot agree and cannot disrespect the history of Kohaku or the development of other important lines. You will not find references to the use of an albino (please I will be eat my words if you can find me a published source to prove otherwise). If albino has a significant role to play, surely it would be common knowledge. I have spoken to my share of breeders, dealers, koi judges and koi keepers with years expereince who have asked and listened to the stories. None say anything about albino.

      And Surely it would be have been studied?

      On a side note, there is a study published in 2012 that identifies the genetic separation of common carp and koi. They were able to show a distinct separation of sanke, kohaku, ogon and ghost koi as a related group, separate to carp. This related group have 98 genes. The study also identifies a separate subpopulation of kohaku with 100 and suggest that this population broke off early in the development of koi. I would conclude, the group has been line bred ever since. The group of kohaku with 98 are the result of outcrosses to other varieties. If albino was so important why is there the distinct subpopulation?

      (Sorry, abuchi123, this does not help you)
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    17. #17
      Roger's Avatar
      Roger is offline Senior Member
      is a mad scientist
       
      Feeling:
      Crazy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Hawaii
      Posts
      666
      Bradley, I have a female Akame kigoi that I can spawn for educational purposes. It could be a breeding secret that is not shared.
      Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
      I know you will bang on forever about the wonderful use of albino. Whatever conclusion you think, I cannot agree and cannot disrespect the history of Kohaku or the development of other important lines. You will not find references to the use of an albino (please I will be eat my words if you can find me a published source to prove otherwise). If albino has a significant role to play, surely it would be common knowledge. I have spoken to my share of breeders, dealers, koi judges and koi keepers with years expereince who have asked and listened to the stories. None say anything about albino.

      And Surely it would be have been studied?

      On a side note, there is a study published in 2012 that identifies the genetic separation of common carp and koi. They were able to show a distinct separation of sanke, kohaku, ogon and ghost koi as a related group, separate to carp. This related group have 98 genes. The study also identifies a separate subpopulation of kohaku with 100 and suggest that this population broke off early in the development of koi. I would conclude, the group has been line bred ever since. The group of kohaku with 98 are the result of outcrosses to other varieties. If albino was so important why is there the distinct subpopulation?

      (Sorry, abuchi123, this does not help you)
      Last edited by Roger; 01-02-2014 at 05:58 PM.

    18. #18
      abuchi123's Avatar
      abuchi123 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      3,688
      An easy way to answer the kigoi question is to cross two random gosanke fish then total up the number of red-eyed kigoi in the off spring. Since Albino is recessive, you can get albino kigoi only if the genes are present in both parents. If the breeders do use kigoi in their lines, some kigoi will show up.

    19. #19
      mrbradleybradley is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2005
      Location
      Sydney, Australia
      Posts
      71
      Yes, it is a secret. Such a well kept secret that the Japanese breeders, domestic US breeders, European, Israeli and Australian breeders know nothing about it.................lol
      Koi Society of Australia www.ksakoi.com

    20. #20
      Roger's Avatar
      Roger is offline Senior Member
      is a mad scientist
       
      Feeling:
      Crazy
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Hawaii
      Posts
      666
      Bradley, sometimes Kodama farm auction off some akame kigoi and in their descriptive literature they point out that it is used to create new varieties.

      Quote Originally Posted by mrbradleybradley View Post
      Yes, it is a secret. Such a well kept secret that the Japanese breeders, domestic US breeders, European, Israeli and Australian breeders know nothing about it.................lol
      Name:  red%20eye%20001.jpg
Views: 332
Size:  118.4 KB
      Last edited by Roger; 01-02-2014 at 10:18 PM.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •