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    Thread: Dry Stacked Block, Surface Bonding Cement, and Xypex C-1000 Admix Quarantine Tank

    1. #1
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Dry Stacked Block, Surface Bonding Cement, and Xypex C-1000 Admix Quarantine Tank

      WARNING: I am not a contractor and I do not believe this type of construction will pass a building code inspection! This is purely an experiment.

      I have been interested in this type of build for a long time, and finally the wooden QT at my parents house started to rot away and they gave me the go ahead to tear it out and start from scratch. I have searched quite a bit for this type of application and I wasn't able to find someone using Surface Bonding Cement WITH the Xypex Admix nor with the concentrate. I contacted Xypex and they directed me to my local sales rep at Coastal Supply here in Jacksonville. Yon was very helpful in this process and told me that his engineers didn't know for sure if the Xypex will work with SBC due to some of the additives used, but he thought it was worth a shot. The amount of Admix that will be used in the SBC coat is only going to worth about $20 so why not give it a try? Best case scenario it works great and everyone is happy. Worst case scenario it doesn't seal properly and a regular Stucco coat with Admix will be applied which he knows will work.

      So onto some pictures...
      Before...

      Look at all that pollen on the Zakki Shower.... It has been crazy bad the last couple weeks. I guess all of the trees got psyched out by the warm weather and started dropping their yellow allergy powder. Funny thing is a cold front just moved through and we could be seeing very cold weather again. Crazy Florida weather!

      Couple hours of Sawzall work...


      I couldn't remember how big I poured the footer for the roof support and was not happy with the results. This made me reduce the size of the pond and made it a lot narrower than I hoped for...


      Then I made the fun discovery that all of the sprinkler valves and lines ran right through the area and shortened the pond again...


      Ran into quite a few large branches/roots from when the house was originally built. This was no fun to dig around.


      For some reason I forgot to take pictures of the form and concrete pour. I guess I was in too much of a hurry trying to get it all done in time so I didn't get charged extra for being late with the concrete mixer. I used a 1 1/4 yard mixer from our rental place and added 12 lbs of the Xypex Admix C-1000. I laid the first course with bond beam block with vertical rebar in ever other cell tying into the slab, and then horizontal rebar for added strength. The second course brings me up to the ground level. These bottom two courses will be poured solid with concrete because I will not be able to apply surface bonding cement to the outside of these two courses. You can see the three 2" return lines in this picture...


      I custom made my bottom drains out of a standard 3" DWV 90 and I welded on 3/4" couplers in the bottom so I can attach 7" rubber diffusers as my drain covers. The exposed pipe is just to keep the concrete out of the pipe.


      All ready for concrete...



      More updates as they become available!
      Zac
      Last edited by Zac Penn; 01-21-2013 at 01:17 PM.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    2. #2
      joshk87's Avatar
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      Looking good! Can't wait to see more. This will be one nice QT.
      My Pond Build
      Koiphen Fantasy Football Champ '15,'13

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      Zac

      It looks great so far. As far as using the Xypex with the Surface Bonding Cement, as long as you use the SBC WITHOUT the acrylic fortifiers, you should be fine. Unless it's not important for this job, I would also suggest using a high concentration dry powder dye to get the finish as close to black as possible. Yes, when it first dries, it will appear to be a dark charcoal gray, but once wet will revert back to black. Look forward to your progress and what filtration design you have up your sleeve!?!
      Mike

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    4. #4
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      I have searched quite a bit for this type of application and I wasn't able to find someone using Surface Bonding Cement WITH the Xypex Admix nor with the concentrate.
      Just for the record, I did.

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...07#post2040207

      But not for structrual support, so I'm really looking forward to how things work for you!
      --Steve
      Find more about Weather in Poulsbo, WA

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    5. #5
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      Forgot to ask how many gallons you're going for.
      My Pond Build
      Koiphen Fantasy Football Champ '15,'13

    6. #6
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      Your photos have you as a fast worker. When the time comes to pull my liner and deepen the pond I am giving you a call. A ticket or two to Disney if you dig fast enough, lol.

    7. #7
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Just for the record, I did.

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...07#post2040207

      But not for structrual support, so I'm really looking forward to how things work for you!
      Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for CONSUMERS/HOBBISTS by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

      Zac

      EDIT: It appears as though my wording implied that I would be selling this type of construction job to my customers. That is not the case unless it can be signed off on by a licensed engineer to pass building code inspections and the client was confident in the idea.
      Last edited by Zac Penn; 01-21-2013 at 01:21 PM.
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    8. #8
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      Your photos have you as a fast worker. When the time comes to pull my liner and deepen the pond I am giving you a call. A ticket or two to Disney if you dig fast enough, lol.
      I am only 30 and I keep telling my dad "I am too old for this $h*t" so don't think I will be waiting by the phone for your call Jim
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC.
      fwiw, the acrylic fortifier hasn't seemed to make any difference with mine.

      And I can't wait to see how it works out... ever since I made my filter pit out of dry stacked, hollow blocks with SBC coated on both sides, and then used the Xypex on the
      lower pond, I've wanted to try them together and see how it'd work.
      --Steve
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      I am only 30 and I keep telling my dad "I am too old for this $h*t" so don't think I will be waiting by the phone for your call Jim
      Oh please, your still younger than me, plenty of energy in ya, lol.

    11. #11
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      I am a little worried about the sprinkler system...
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    12. #12
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      Back to work. I got the bottom two courses poured yesterday and and had a lot of work ahead of me...



      As you can see in this picture there are a few things you need when doing this type of project.
      1 - Shims... The blocks are not perfect and there is no mortar to even things up. Your wall will get a little out of whack unless you shim a couple places to keep the courses straight.
      2 - Level... Obviously it is needed to keep things level and plumb as you work.
      3 - Long Straight Edge... This is very important to keep things level. This helps you span long distances and keep the wall straight to eliminate curves/bows in the wall.
      4 - Large Angle Grinder... It is out of view but you will need this to cut your blocks straight. You also need a respirator, eye protection and hearing protection.
      5 - Mortar... This is needed to correct any big differences in level between courses. I had the front wall end up 3/16" lower than the back so I didn't want to shim that much so I used a thin layer of mortar to correct this. After this course was fixed everything else went smoothly.


      Next thing that I want to point out is that since I am not a perfect rectangle I am going to pour concrete into the front two corners. This is due to the fact that these corners have to be mitered instead of perfectly over lapped. I am concerned that these mitered corners will not hold up that well with the surface bonding cement. So I cut channels into those corners so that the concrete will fill these voids.



      Lots more work to do so check back for more updates.
      Zac
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    13. #13
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      I am a little worried about the sprinkler system...
      Yeah the sprinkler system is going to be a PITA to sort out, but that will be dealt with once the concrete work is done, and all of the dirt is removed. Then I will figure out what changes need to be made.
      Zac Penn.... Not an expert on Pump Testing, no matter what people may think!
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    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      Evidently the acrylic fortifier is the "Devil" when it comes to Xypex. I am not using anything other than what comes in the bag of SBC. That is going to be my first plan of attack. I am going to use the Admix dose based on 30% cement weight per bag of SBC (based on the technical data sheets) and rely on that as the only water proofing agent in this mix. I am going to rely solely on the structural integrity of the SBC to hold my walls together (they will be 7 courses tall but only 5 courses truly dry stacked). I want to treat the cold joint between the block wall and concrete floor with a 45 degree angle coating of SBC with Admix to keep that joint waterproofed. This is going to be a fun project. If I notice any structural issues because of the SBC then I will be able to drain the water and fill each cell with concrete. If the Xypex doesn't work with the SBC then I will do the stucco coat to help with that. If that doesn't work, then I will go to a paint on liner. Either way with a project this small we are only talking a couple hundred dollars to fix the problem. However IF this does work then it could save thousands of dollars for future customers by avoiding the concrete cost of filling each cell as well as the expense of paint/spray on liners for water proofing.

      Zac
      Well, that's a nice idea, but a lot of this would totally depend on the individuals soil conditions where they live. Though ALL GROUND moves to some degree, it would be the degree of movement/settlement of a particular soil that could render this type of installation worthless, IMHO.

      On your "angled" corner, are you planning to do any type of steel reinforcement along with adding the concrete? I seem to recall Becky had a problem with her pond walls pulling apart even WITH concrete filled cells due to the lack of proper steel reinforcement!?
      Mike

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      Very cool experiment Zac!!!
      Looking forward to hearing more.
      I'm with Mike, I'm a bit concerned about that corner. Since you depend on a "skim" coating for water retention any movement there will cause it to leak. My inclination would bed to run the block out as if it were 90 degrees and mark and trim the excess, rather than mitering. I know it would not look clean and would require using a plywood strip to fill against but then you would still have the benefit of interlocking block at the corner.

      Keep up the great work.

      Eric

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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      Well, that's a nice idea, but a lot of this would totally depend on the individuals soil conditions where they live. Though ALL GROUND moves to some degree, it would be the degree of movement/settlement of a particular soil that could render this type of installation worthless, IMHO.

      On your "angled" corner, are you planning to do any type of steel reinforcement along with adding the concrete? I seem to recall Becky had a problem with her pond walls pulling apart even WITH concrete filled cells due to the lack of proper steel reinforcement!?

      Granted I do not think this method would be safe in earthquake zones, or high frost zones, but it should work in most places.

      As for the corner I am not going to use rebar in the corners, but I am going to use large strips of fiberglass tape to hold those corners together. I am going to lay down a skim coat of SBC, then apply the fiberglass strips and then coat on top of that. This will connect the entire corner into one solid piece and keep it from separating.
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    17. #17
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by epse30 View Post
      Very cool experiment Zac!!!
      Looking forward to hearing more.
      I'm with Mike, I'm a bit concerned about that corner. Since you depend on a "skim" coating for water retention any movement there will cause it to leak. My inclination would bed to run the block out as if it were 90 degrees and mark and trim the excess, rather than mitering. I know it would not look clean and would require using a plywood strip to fill against but then you would still have the benefit of interlocking block at the corner.

      Keep up the great work.

      Eric
      I had thought about doing that, but after mocking up those corners I realized the angle grinder I had wouldn't make those cuts easily if the block was already in place. It would make it more unsafe to cut and take more time. I am getting a little more responsible when it comes to dangerous situations so I chose to miter

      Also I am not going to be applying a 1/8" thick coat of SBC like the package says will work. I will at least be using a 1/4" thick coat to make sure this is not only strong enough, but also have enough cement that the Xypex can crystalize in.

      Zac
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    18. #18
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by joshk87 View Post
      Forgot to ask how many gallons you're going for.
      Sorry I missed this earlier...
      I had originally wanted the volume to be 1800 gallons, but the sprinkler system and concrete footer changed the plan and reduced the size. It looks right now that I will be at 1156 gallons. Still a good sized QT tank, but less than I wanted.
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    19. #19
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      Was that the original large Zakki pre filter with media? Hooking it all back up the same way when you are done building?

    20. #20
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by jimfish98 View Post
      Was that the original large Zakki pre filter with media? Hooking it all back up the same way when you are done building?
      Actually it was the very first Zakki Sieve I ever made. It was 16" diameter and yes it did have the Ultima media in the bottom. I am not finalized on my filtration plan for this system. I pretty sure it will be airlift powered which is why I have two 3" bottom drains installed. I have a couple interesting ideas I am playing with, but I need to work it out a little more before I finalize.

      Zac
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