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    Thread: Toncho Sanke

    1. #1
      Oakridge's Avatar
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      Toncho Sanke

      This is the only pic I have of her. Breeder is Myatoro. Other than her being here from Japan at the end of the month, I have no other info except I am interested in buying. Thanks for any and all comments. Gene G.
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      The skin looks very good on the body, but not the head. The conformation, if only Nisai, is fair. The sumi is a bit busy and doesn't appear that it will consolidate into slightly larger pieces. Also, the ones below the lateral line on the left side of the fish are distracting and really shouldn't be there on a high quality fish. The last thing, and I really can't put my finger on it for sure, but the beni appears to be a bit on the hard side which may not bode well for hanging around when she's 4-5 yrs old.
      Mike

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      xlaziox is offline Senior Member
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      Mike, what makes the conformation only fair on this one?
      I guess the head looks a little pointy to me... But the tail looks really thick, and from the gills back it looks really solid to me.
      By "hard" Beni, you are referring to the REDness of the Beni? It being really red means it is more likely to fade?

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      Quote Originally Posted by xlaziox View Post
      Mike, what makes the conformation only fair on this one?
      I guess the head looks a little pointy to me... But the tail looks really thick, and from the gills back it looks really solid to me.
      By "hard" Beni, you are referring to the REDness of the Beni? It being really red means it is more likely to fade?
      The overall shape of the head is a concern, including a slightly pointy head. Whether this resolves itself or not is for the future to tell, not me. It can. The beni appears to be slightly "rough" around the edges and the purplish based hi on the head is just a real concern. I've seen a lot of fish that look similar fail and lose the beni within 1-2 years after Nisai. Yes, the body line is okay, it's just hard from that single pic to discern how tall the fish is.
      Mike

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    5. #5
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      Tancho Beni Degradation Detection

      Interesting. So the "rough"ness around the beni... Are you referring to the little lumps on the edges that look like little scales? I'm curious because the tancho spot bares a lot of resemblance to the tancho spot on the Showa I bought. These subtle shades of hi/beni must take some time to get down. I hear "pink beni" a lot... What shade of beni would you consider the tancho on the one I got? And would you also be concerned about its tancho disappearing?
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      Quote Originally Posted by xlaziox View Post
      Interesting. So the "rough"ness around the beni... Are you referring to the little lumps on the edges that look like little scales? I'm curious because the tancho spot bares a lot of resemblance to the tancho spot on the Showa I bought. These subtle shades of hi/beni must take some time to get down. I hear "pink beni" a lot... What shade of beni would you consider the tancho on the one I got? And would you also be concerned about its tancho disappearing?
      I too would like to understand more about how to tell the difference between hard and soft beni. Here is a pic of a Toncho I have had for four years, which would make her at least 5 years old. She did not grow very large but the judges at koi shows always like her. Thanks Mike for your comments! Gene G.
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      Last edited by Oakridge; 11-10-2013 at 08:49 PM.

    7. #7
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      I might be wrong but for a tancho sanke I thought you do not want any sumi on the tancho. Is this correct ?

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      Quote Originally Posted by xlaziox View Post
      Interesting. So the "rough"ness around the beni... Are you referring to the little lumps on the edges that look like little scales? I'm curious because the tancho spot bares a lot of resemblance to the tancho spot on the Showa I bought. These subtle shades of hi/beni must take some time to get down. I hear "pink beni" a lot... What shade of beni would you consider the tancho on the one I got? And would you also be concerned about its tancho disappearing?
      Yes and no. what I'm referring to on the Tancho mark is the actual edge of the hi plate. The shape is a bit more subjective. It's not so much the "pattern" or overall design, it's how the actual "edges" look. After looking at the original pic posted here, I would like to see a clean pic without the difference in light and shade of the lighting. The body seems to be well lit but the head is near the edge of the bowl and appears to be less well lit which could change the whole outlook other that the shape of the head and the sumi placement, which doesn't really change anything from the first pic.

      Quote Originally Posted by Oakridge View Post
      I too would like to understand more about how to tell the difference between hard and soft beni. Here is a pic of a Toncho I have had for four years, which would make her at least 5 years old. She did not grow very large but the judges at koi shows always like her. Thanks Mike for your comments! Gene G.
      Compare the two "shades" of color on the two fish. You'll see that the Tancho Kohaku has a more persimmon coloring, yet the color is more homogenous appearing. This is also an older fish and probably valued higher with regard to overall quality.

      Quote Originally Posted by vipertom1970 View Post
      I might be wrong but for a tancho sanke I thought you do not want any sumi on the tancho. Is this correct ?
      Ideally, yes, but nothing in this world is "perfect" especially koi. And, it would depend on the judge's opinions on the day.
      Mike

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    9. #9
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      HA! I beat you to it Russ!

      CROOKED HEAD!!! It's a NASCAR koi. I say we name it "go fast turn left"... Only teasing...

      On a more serious note... So you are looking at what on the "edges"? The depth/consistency of the color?

      I wasn't necessarily suggesting it was any particular shade, but I kept hearing pink beni, and then Mike broke out the purple beni. I'm just curious how many shades of beni there are... 50 perhaps? Did you know 50 shades of gray was the most requested book at Guantanamo Bay? Squirrel!
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    10. #10
      koiman1950's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by xlaziox View Post
      CROOKED HEAD!!! It's a NASCAR koi. I say we name it "go fast turn left"... Only teasing...

      On a more serious note... So you are looking at what on the "edges"? The depth/consistency of the color?

      I wasn't necessarily suggesting it was any particular shade, but I kept hearing pink beni, and then Mike broke out the purple beni. I'm just curious how many shades of beni there are... 50 perhaps? Did you know 50 shades of gray was the most requested book at Guantanamo Bay? Squirrel!
      I look at the edges of the beni on any koi with color on the head. The edges should look like they were drawn with a very fine point pen or cut with a razor knife. No, I don't mean "winter work" as discussed about the Japanese refining them by actually cutting the edges. If there is any indication of roughness at the edges, I back off. In younger fish, this can also display as a difference in the color around the edges being a bit more yellow-orange tinting.

      I still can't personally tell what "pink beni" is as I haven't seen enough of it in person to elaborate. However, purple beni has been around for many years. It is a darker red with an almost purplish hue to it in certain light. This is usually harder beni that is like old paint and can, as the fish grows, stretch and kinda flake off as it is usually a thinner type color that sits on the surface of the skin as opposed to being of deeper color through the epidermis into the first dermis layer. With tanchos, this can be harder to tell for sure as there is no color on the body to see how thick it really is. Another thing that appears to be most important with selecting Tancho koi is that the color should be thick and evenly colored throughout. Any visible differences ANYWHERE within the beni are telltale signs of weaker color.

      There are many "shades" of hi associated with koi. Russ mentioned another new one that even the breeder had a hard time putting an actual name to. It all comes down to the genetics used and passed down through generations of breeding from the original stocks within a particular variety. As things get crossed, the lines get even more blurred.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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