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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Thread: Electrical question: GFCI breaker vs. GFCI outlet.....

    1. #21
      monomer's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Waterbug View Post
      If you're concerned with flipping a switch with wet hands they make a water proof cover for a regular switch. The water proof switch mechanically moves the actual switch. A switch that controls power to a GFCI outlet wouldn't be GFCI protected, not that it's required to be.


      GFCI receptacles have gone bad on me many times. Don't know why. I assume moisture. One was in the sun and I think over heated.
      That's exactly the type switch I have my GFCI outlets connected to... its safe because there is no metal to metal connection and the swtich cover is water tight and weather proofed. However I have the outlets boxes mounted down low so the wires and plugs are out of the way and then I have the switch box (connected by conduit) placed at shoulder height so its easy to reach. Also I have two separate GFCI outlet pairs, one for each pump/filter circuit of the pond (one circuit is skimmer-filters-waterfall, other is BD-filters-TPR) so if one circuit trips the other will still provide filtration and water movement. I have the air pumps wired into the basement (yet another GFCI outlet on another electrical circuit).
      Last edited by monomer; 09-03-2012 at 10:38 AM.
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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Greetings! I had a question for those more electrical-savvy than myself:

      I am running some electrical in my backyard -- from a 50-amp sub-panel -- via below-grade (buried) conduit -- to a bank of outlet boxes where my pump array is located. The idea is that I will have outlets right next to the pumps. I feel pretty secure with my installation thus far regarding wire gauge, amp load, code-requirement for burial death of conduit, etc.

      My question: because I plan on several standard-sized outlets, my intention was to use non-GFCI OUTLETS and supply power to these outlets via a single 20-amp GFCI-protected BREAKER. My rationale is that the GFCI breaker will essentially perform the same function as using GFCI outlets -- note that there are some space considerations that simply make standard outlets easer for me to fit, hence my plan for using the GFCi breaker. While at the HD "big-box" store yesterday picking up parts, the sales associate states that if I am using a GFCI breaker to protect outdoor wiring, then I must also use GFCI outlets......? I have never heard of this; in fact, I have heard that GFCI outlets used on feeds that are also protected by GFCI breakers can auto-trip. I think the sales guy was wrong -- but I am not afraid to learn (and maybe code has changed).

      Is it cool to use a GFCI breaker to feed the outdoor (weather-protected) outlets-- these outlets being non-GFCI type -- or is there more to the issue that I do not yet understand?

      Thanks for any help.

      Paul
      The store box guy is an idiot. The idea of having a GFCI breaker is to allow normal plugs and the same protection. A lot of inspectors actually prefer the GFCI breakers.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bender View Post
      Koiman1950 beat me to it. Having the separate GFCI outlets will not shut the whole system down for one fault.
      With separate GFCIs diagnosing a fault would be much easier as well. If a circuit trips just unplug that device and plug it into another GFCI. If the second one trips the problem lies within the device. If it doesn't then the problem could be a worn GFCI outlet.
      Cost wasn't mentioned, a three pack of outlets is probably cheaper than one breaker although I could be wrong as code changes have made GFCIs cheaper and more available.

      This will only hold true if every single GFCI outlet is on it's own circuit and not in sequence. If you wire your plugs in sequence and the first one trips then all of the plugs down the line will not work. If you have all of your GFCI's on the same circuit but your wire them directly, individually, then this will not happen. This is possible by using pigtails in each box to wire each GFCI individually off of the main circuit.

      BTW, as Rich pointed out, GFCI oultets do take up more space in an outlet box and don't believe the outdoor boxes are waterproof, they are not.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    4. #24
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      Keep in mind that when using multiple GFCI outlets on the same circuit one trip can cause upstream GFCIs to also trip. This isn't always the case, but GFCI can be very sensitive. This includes breakers. A GFCI breaker can trip if a GFCI outlet on that circuit trips.

      They're only tested and designed to stop down stream devices, what happens upstream can be anything. If you want to test a specific setup the only way I know is to use a device to cause a trip and see want happens. Then you could plug your most important device into the least likely to trip outlet. No guarantee, cause of trip could be different next time.

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      This will only hold true if every single GFCI outlet is on it's own circuit and not in sequence. If you wire your plugs in sequence and the first one trips then all of the plugs down the line will not work. If you have all of your GFCI's on the same circuit but your wire them directly, individually, then this will not happen. This is possible by using pigtails in each box to wire each GFCI individually off of the main circuit.
      Ya Russel when I mentioned separate GFCI's that was what I was getting at but like you mentioned some do wire many outlets on one GFCI outlet.

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bender View Post
      Ya Russel when I mentioned separate GFCI's that was what I was getting at but like you mentioned some do wire many outlets on one GFCI outlet.
      Just wanted to make sure.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Greetings! I had a question for those more electrical-savvy than myself:

      I am running some electrical in my backyard -- from a 50-amp sub-panel -- via below-grade (buried) conduit -- to a bank of outlet boxes where my pump array is located. The idea is that I will have outlets right next to the pumps. I feel pretty secure with my installation thus far regarding wire gauge, amp load, code-requirement for burial death of conduit, etc.

      My question: because I plan on several standard-sized outlets, my intention was to use non-GFCI OUTLETS and supply power to these outlets via a single 20-amp GFCI-protected BREAKER. My rationale is that the GFCI breaker will essentially perform the same function as using GFCI outlets -- note that there are some space considerations that simply make standard outlets easer for me to fit, hence my plan for using the GFCi breaker. While at the HD "big-box" store yesterday picking up parts, the sales associate states that if I am using a GFCI breaker to protect outdoor wiring, then I must also use GFCI outlets......? I have never heard of this; in fact, I have heard that GFCI outlets used on feeds that are also protected by GFCI breakers can auto-trip. I think the sales guy was wrong -- but I am not afraid to learn (and maybe code has changed).

      Is it cool to use a GFCI breaker to feed the outdoor (weather-protected) outlets-- these outlets being non-GFCI type -- or is there more to the issue that I do not yet understand?

      Thanks for any help.

      Paul
      Hi Paul,

      All advice above is sound. Personally, I prefer GFCI outlets. GFCI circuit breakers require you to go to the panel, usually not in the same area, to reset them. I use 20 amp units because they are a little more reliable.

      A GOOGLE search for "combination switch gfci" yielded this:

      http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-7299-N.../dp/B000T8GWUK

      The advantage to this combo unit is no one will plug something into the second outlet on a standard gfci and cause a trip that you don't know about causing problems. If you need two loads on one switch such as a pump and UV you can use a two gang box like icu2 Steve posted.

      Hope this helps,
      Bob

    8. #28
      Paultergeist is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks to all for the helpful replies.........I've got some ideas brewing......thanks to all the great suggestions......

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sweetwater View Post

      A GOOGLE search for "combination switch gfci" yielded this:

      http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-7299-N.../dp/B000T8GWUK

      The advantage to this combo unit is no one will plug something into the second outlet on a standard gfci and cause a trip that you don't know about causing problems.
      Bob,

      Thanks for the link. I actually found a slightly better price hunting around on-line, but in the end, I went with (2) of those GFCI-outlet/switch combos just as you posted. In this way, I will be able to control the two pumps (one to run the POD under normal conditions, one to clean the POD) by just flipping the switches. I also have a second dual-gang box, which will allow me to add (2) more dual-outlet GFCI outlets. This will give me a total of (6) outlets: (2) of them switched, (4) of them standard [plug/un-plug], all of them GFCI-protected at the outlet. I will then just use a standard breaker at the sub-panel.

      ....so that's the plan. I appreciate all the good ideas from everyone.

      Paul

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Bob,

      Thanks for the link. I actually found a slightly better price hunting around on-line, but in the end, I went with (2) of those GFCI-outlet/switch combos just as you posted. In this way, I will be able to control the two pumps (one to run the POD under normal conditions, one to clean the POD) by just flipping the switches. I also have a second dual-gang box, which will allow me to add (2) more dual-outlet GFCI outlets. This will give me a total of (6) outlets: (2) of them switched, (4) of them standard [plug/un-plug], all of them GFCI-protected at the outlet. I will then just use a standard breaker at the sub-panel.

      ....so that's the plan. I appreciate all the good ideas from everyone.

      Paul
      Glad I could help. If you do the GOOGLE search you will find them at other sites a little cheaper. Also they may be available at a local electrical supply store but I don't know about the pricing. They are generally in stock because they are used to satisfy the requirement of switch/ gfci in bathrooms.

      Bob

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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by koiman1950 View Post
      So, every time a piece of equipment fails, shorts out or whatever, EVERYTHING SHUTS OFF!
      Mike
      Not always true Mike, depending on how much breaker space you have in your box, I debated this also and an electricion convinced me against gfci outlets, just for the fact they wear out rather quickly. I have the space to install separate GFCI Breakers for each pump Ect., so only one blows if that particular pump fails, yea the breakers cost a bit more but will last and make up for replacing gfci outlets over the years. Well that is what he told me anyways and I am going that route.
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    12. #32
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      Just my two cents...

      1. The receptacle can be reset at the receptacle. This can be important if the circuit breaker is in a remote location.
      2. It may be easier to install receptacles in a retrofit application, with a CB you have to make sure you know which is the correct neutral at the panel.
      3. Cost, as a bolt on GFCI CB can be $100 or more (more info here) https://besttoolexpert.com/gfci-outlet/

      I like the receptacles as they can be reset locally. If I am running power to an underground vault that can flood I will use a CB.

      Its really a end user choice.
      Last edited by Yondun; 11-07-2018 at 04:50 AM.

    13. #33
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      I am in the camp of gfci breakers and regular receptacles. The gfci receptacles are more bulky and start filling up a box fast and from my experience become faulty or fail at a much higher rate. I've never had to replace a faulty gfci breaker but I have replaced many gfci receptacles gone bad. I installed multiple gfci breakers and regular receptacles, different circuits and split the critical loads onto the different circuits.

      I don't have to go far to reset a breaker. I've got a sub panel out near the pond halfway between each set of receptacles.
      Last edited by LoriP; 11-06-2018 at 09:39 AM.

    14. #34
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      Here in Singapore we follow the standards introduced by our former British overlords.

      A single RCD (GFCI) breaker typically serves several unprotected outlets. Overcurrent protection is typically provided by a right-sized fuse in the plug of the appliance.

      For my pond I have a pair of breakers serving different sets of redundant infrastructure so any power demons that trip the upstream only take out half the systems.

      I also got this nifty device that screams bloody murder when it detects mains power loss. (Sorry good neighbors)

      http://drumalarm.com/powerfailalarm-w.html

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