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    Thread: Police lay charges after toddler drowns in backyard pond

    1. #61
      MikeS's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
      Just recently (two days ago) someone in northern Michigan here backed a car over a toddler apparently no one was watching at the time, killing the child and according to the newsreporter this type of thing happens every so often.... so do we now pass a law requiring everyone who intends to back out of their own driveway to station another person in the drive to watchout for errant toddlers with parents who may have misplaced them just for a moment? Where does crazy logic end? Why aren't we holding the parents responsible?

      I own dogs... these are creatures who will never grow up to assume their own responsiblility and will forever need constant supervision their whole lives (10-12 years), far, far longer than any toddler will ever need that type of supervision. Everyone always remarks at how well mannered our dogs are and wishes their dogs were like them. Well, we either monitor our dogs or have then safely contained until we can again monitor them... that's why our dogs are so well mannered. If my dog had wandered over to someone else's property and drowned while trying to catch a fish, would/should I be able to sue them? bring criminal charges against the pond owner? Obviously the answer is no because we have no such ridiculous laws requiring a dog be protected dispite their irresponsible owners... we just simply recognize that the owners are irresponsible and they suffer the consequences. What perplexes me is why we have such a great tolerance for the irresponsible parent of a toddler to the point where their negligence is excused as an "ooops" but anyone who didn't anticipate this negligence on their part are then made to pay for someone else's "oooops" moment and are criminalize by these laws communities pass to excuse the irresponsible parent. No wonder we have so many uncontrollable children running around who eventually turn into problem teens and then adults. Responsible parents raise well-mannered and respectful kids... same as dogs.

      Hold the parents responsible... you wanna pass laws, then pass laws regulating the irresponsible parenting.


      Yup it's a tragedy, I can't imagine the grief at their loss. Our same laws provide that a child is best off with their biological parent be they drug addicts and abusive or guilty of neglect. Let's not judge the neighbor quite so harshly and turn our thoughts to our own families. Are you all perfect? I know I'm not but you can be ****** sure my 2 year old wouldn't be out of sight long enough to leave the house and yard and end up in my neighbors pond. If they did I would blame myself and testify in the defense of my poor neighbor.
      Mike & Sharon Shaw
      Jonesborough TN

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=437164

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    2. #62
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      I agree with Monomer 100000%. There should be stiffer penalties for the parents of unruly children, no matter the age. And we all wonder why there is a generation people feeling short changed about not getting everything their way who are now having kids of their own. There has been far too much ACCOModation for children and irresponsibility, and not enough REGulation. Once people start taking responsibility for their action or inaction, without all this coddling and PC crap and pointing of fingers, things would go much smoother.

    3. #63
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      The man charged after a toddler drowned in his backyard pond has been granted bail.

      Question: If the complete backyard was fenced not counting the problem with the gate ( Post # 43 ) does the pond require another fence around it ?

      I wondered why the crew that was sent in temporarily fenced the pond instead of closing the gate opening?

    4. #64
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      Quote Originally Posted by CdnJCR View Post
      The man charged after a toddler drowned in his backyard pond has been granted bail.

      Question: If the complete backyard was fenced not counting the problem with the gate ( Post # 43 ) does the pond require another fence around it ?

      I wondered why the crew that was sent in temporarily fenced the pond instead of closing the gate opening?
      Crime scene?
      Mike & Sharon Shaw
      Jonesborough TN

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=437164

    5. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
      Crime scene?
      Don't think so property was taped off during the investigation. Just wondered what would have been required other then a self closing/locking gate to meet the by-law requirements or did the pond require a separate enclosure.

    6. #66
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      They may have decided the existing fencing was inadequate and typical toronto overkill for media hype, fenced off the pond. The accident in Mississauga was handled as a tragic accident, and that's what it was. A few miles away in Toronto, it's a crime.

      Monomer, your post was spot on.

      clm
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    7. #67
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      I can clearly remember my parents telling me to go play outside when I was a kid... The times have changed.

      Brad










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    8. #68
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      Edit:

      Nevermind. Best to move on.
      Last edited by Shadow99; 06-21-2012 at 08:52 AM.

    9. #69
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      root hog or die

      Why does the law require that swimming pools be fenced and that the latch on the gate has to be high enough that a child can’t reach it? Why is there railing on that five story staircase?

      Seriously the way I see it is either root hog or die. If my neighbor wants to install death traps on a trip wire around his castle that is nobody else’s business! Frigin govament!


    10. #70
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      It was a tragedy that the toddler drowned...

      So many ways for a small child to be hurt or killed if allowed outside without supervision... traffic for one... I'm assuming there is a road to the house and a driveway... and if there is, a car could drive on it... and if a child walked in front of the car, he could be hit......... or if there is traffic there could also be a bad person [a stranger]...... children disappear every day... but the child wasn't hit by a car or abducted by a stranger...

      and there is a pond but it could of been a five gallon bucket or a whiskey barrel...a horrible accident, for sure... but in my mind the parents should know the risk if their toddler is outside the house unsupervised.. I don't blame the neighbor... up here we have Marinas, docks, rows and rows of boats... people live in some of those boats... there are no fences to keep out children... there are also lakes and rivers and ponds that for the most part are not fenced... it would be so hard to fence off all dangers....... sometimes things happen that shouldn't and it is a sad thing.... it would be best if the pond was fenced and if a gate was shut and latched... but hard in my mind to require that in a back yard pond when nature doesn't fence in all of her dangers... what about cliffs... in schools, younger children are supervised outside at recess, even when in a fenced playground because they could hurt each other, or fall down and get hurt... or be abducted...... no doubt about it having children is a responsibility and a tiresome task but that is part of the deal... and sometimes we lose sight of them for a brief period and most of the time that doesn't mean that something horrible will happen but the risk is always there...
      I long for a simpler time,too.... when a tragedy was a tragedy and we didn't see who we could blame... I know there are codes about fencing in swimming pools and there should be about back yard ponds, too, I suppose... I can see this in the city but what about if you have acreage and there is a creek on it or riverfront or lakefront property.. do you need to fence in the lake front or riverfront... what if the neighbor had a fenced yard and you didn't and a child wandered into your yard and then fell in the lake or river from there... are you negligent or is that one mother nature's fault....
      Last edited by powerman; 06-21-2012 at 11:25 AM.
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    11. #71
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      Quote Originally Posted by six6guy View Post
      I can clearly remember my parents telling me to go play outside when I was a kid... The times have changed.

      Brad
      They told you to go play in traffic, didn't they?
      DAN







    12. #72
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Out here in California, we have this little ol' body of water called the Pacific Ocean.....and it is a real hazard, too, as it seems like someone -- quite often a child -- wanders away while the parents are distracted and tragically downs in the darn thing.

      We are, however, working on a plan which will incorporate an 800-mile fence......
      We have that ocean thingie up here too..... it isn't fenced either... and there are lots of lakes surrounded by homes and they haven't fenced off the lakes either.... hmmm... if we raise taxes we could remedy this situation....
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    13. #73
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      Quote Originally Posted by powerman View Post
      They told you to go play in traffic, didn't they?
      Not much traffic then, and tractors move pretty slow. We did have dirt bikes and snowmobiles though...

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    14. #74
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      Obviously a sad situation but there was plenty of "boneheadiness" going around. By the parents, not more closely watching a 2y old, particularly knowing there's a pond next doors. Likely a lack of judgemnt. I'm never supprised by parents anymore. There is a segment of them that shouldn't be allowed to breed.



      For the pond owner, not takiing precaution to minimize liability. You're never going to elinimate the hazard, but you need to make effort to minimize it. An older kid can climb or kick through a field but at least you have shown from a liability standpoint, the effort.
      Last edited by mpageler; 06-21-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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    15. #75
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      Quote Originally Posted by mpageler View Post
      Obviously a sad situation but there was plenty of "boneheadiness" going around. By the parents, not more closely watching a 2y old, particularly knowing there's a pond next doors. Likely a lack of judgemnt. I'm never supprised by parents anymore. There is a segment of them that shouldn't be allowed to breed.




      For the pond owner, not takiing precaution to minimize liability. You're never going to elinimate the hazard, but you need to make effort to minimize it. An older kid can climb or kick through a field but at least you have shown from a liability standpoint, the effort.

    16. #76
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      Another case of parental neglect, but with a different outcome. Both the death of an innocent child.

      LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) - The Louisville coroner has ruled the death of an 8-month-old child left for hours in a hot vehicle was an accident after his father forgot to drop him off at day care.

      Jefferson County Chief Deputy Coroner Jo-Ann Farmer said that Lincoln Lindsay was pronounced dead at 6:17 p.m. on Monday and the cause of death was complications of environmental exposure to ambient heat inside a closed car..

      Louisville Metro Police spokeswoman Carey Klain told The Courier-Journal that the baby's parents were questioned by police, but no charges have been filed as the investigation continues.

      The names of the parents have not been released because they haven't been charged.

      The National Weather Service said the temperature was 89 degrees at Louisville International Airport late Monday afternoon
      Last edited by gatorlover; 06-22-2012 at 09:05 AM.
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    17. #77
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      Should the makers of the car the kid was abandonded in be charged in this case? After all, there weren't any safety features in place to prevent this from happening.

      Why are the parents not being charged? The death of a child is indeed hideous enough, but what about the negligence of the parents being brushed over? If the negligence only caused injury and not death would the parents be charged then? Child endangerment maybe? There is no consistency in any of this.

      I am not trying to deliberately stir the pot, just trying to make a point and emphasize the need for parents to take responsibility for their childrens' wellbeing.
      Last edited by crazycatlady; 06-22-2012 at 09:35 AM.

    18. #78
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      Quote Originally Posted by crazycatlady View Post
      Should the makers of the car the kid was abandonded in be charged in this case? After all, there weren't any safety features in place to prevent this from happening....
      Very good point indeed... its probably because the auto makers have the huge resources to fight such legislation but the poor individual pond owner doesn't... plus most people don't want to pay hundreds perhaps thousands more for a car to protect someone else's child from irresponsible parenting so that would be unpopular however most people don't own ponds so they could care less how much a fence costs the pond owner or how inconvenient it might make the pond to enjoy.

      If the parents aren't going to be held responsible by the authorities simply writing it off as they had an "ooops" moment about not knowing where their toddler was, then why is the pond owner being charged for his "oooops" moment with forgetting where his gate was at the time?

      How is it that people can't seem to understand the only reason that little toddler drowned was because he was not being monitored? (My guess is it was for a length of time far exceeding just a mere moment). If the child had instead chosen to go across the street and there had gotten run-over by a car going 5-mph over the speed limit then suddenly the driver is to be blamed for the death and criminally charged? I'm sure many people would indeed blame the driver and criminally convict him, all the while pitying those poor parents, never stopping to reason that the car may have been what actually killed the child but that wasn't what got the child killed... the real offense was allowing the child to get into harm's way to begin with. Slice it and dice it however you want, there is only a single blame to go around here and it sits squarely with the parents/guardian of the toddler. Period! Its criminal negligence on the part of the parent/guardian that got that innocent toddler killed and if any criminal charges are going to be filed, fines levied, jail time meted out, etc. then it should be the parents who have to pay for their crime of negligence (grieved as they might be over the loss of their child). These are all truly tragic events to be mourned over but that shouldn't cloud the issue of who's responsibility it was to keep the child safe from harm.

      The whole legal argument about fencing being required around any body of water deeper than 24" is just being used as a red herring. Have the pond owner pay a fine and be done with it. If they want to pursue anyone with criminal negligence in this tragedy then it should be the parents... otherwise chalk it up as a very tragic accident that sometimes happens.
      Last edited by monomer; 06-23-2012 at 12:20 AM.

    19. #79
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      Quote Originally Posted by monomer View Post
      Very good point indeed... its probably because the auto makers have the huge resources to fight such legislation but the poor individual pond owner doesn't... plus most people don't want to pay hundreds perhaps thousands more for a car to protect someone else's child from irresponsible parenting so that would be unpopular however most people don't own ponds so they could care less how much a fence costs the pond owner or how inconvenient it might make the pond to enjoy.

      If the parents aren't going to be held responsible by the authorities simply writing it off as they had an "ooops" moment about no knowing where their toddler was, then why is the pond owner being charged for his "oooops" moment with forgetting where his gate was at the time?

      How is it that people can't seem to understand the only reason that little toddler drowned was because he was not being monitored? (My guess is it was for a length of time far exceeding just a mere moment). If the child had instead chosen to go across the street and there had gotten run-over by a car going 5-mph over the speed limit then suddenly the driver is to be blamed for the death and criminally charged? I'm sure many people would indeed blame the driver and criminally convict him, all the while pitying those poor parents, never stopping to reason that the car may have been what actually killed the child but that wasn't what got the child killed... the real offense was allowing the child into harm's way to begin with. Slice it and diced it however you want, there is only a single blame to go around here and it sits squarely with the parents/guardian of the toddler. Period! Its criminal negligence on the part of the parent/guardian that got that innocent toddler killed and if any criminal charges are going to be filed, fines levied, jail time meted out, etc. then it should be the parents who have to pay for their crime of negligence (grieved as they might be over the loss of their child). These are all truly tragic events to be mourned over but that shouldn't cloud the issue of who's responsibility it was to keep the child safe from harm.

      The whole legal argument about fencing being required around any body of water deeper than 24" is just being used as a red herring. Have the pond owner pay a fine and be done with it. If they want to pursue anyone with criminal negligence in this tragedy then it should be the parents... otherwise chalk it up as a very tragic accident that sometimes happens.
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    20. #80
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      Attractive nuisance
      http://www.legalzoom.com/tips-trends...nces-how-avoid

      The child was being watched in the front yard. The mother/grandmother (story varies) was momentarily distracted when she was helping get the school bus around the construction traffic. During these brief moments the toddler roamed across her yard, through the gate and into the pond next door. Why did the toddler make a beeline for the pond? See attractive nuisance. The gate had been removed as part of construction activity at the home. The child was still alive when transported (the period they were actually missing was very short.) Since brain death can occur in as few as four minutes THIS COULD HAPPEN TO ANY PARENT. Any parent that says they have never had four minutes of distraction when tending their toddler is either forgetful or a liar.

      If you have a pond/pool and do not take steps to prevent this sort thing all the whining in the world that the parents were at fault will not protect your assets. Toddlers are not dogs. They cannot be caged and locked up when the parent is unable to be staring at them. A playpen, a crib, a locked front door...my kids figured out how to get around all of them. Toddlers are FAST. The reason attractive nuisance laws exist is because anyone that has ever had a child knows that if you lookl away for an instant, they can get away.
      Those that have had toddlers know that accidents can happen with blazing speed and these laws are good laws, because they save human lives. A lot of them. Drowning is the number one cause of death in children under 5.

      The pond owner was arrested because they broke the law and a two year old died as a result of their criminal negligence. If you want to maintain an item classified as an attractive nuisance, the law is simple. Take reasonable measures to prevent tragedy.
      Last edited by Shadow99; 06-22-2012 at 09:35 PM.

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