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    Thread: Golden Dragon ~ Bindi

    1. #1
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Golden Dragon ~ Bindi

      Yep a fancy name for a dream!

      I am from Oz and because the importation of koi into this country has been banned since the late 70s our gene pool is small and any "new" varieties have to be built from scratch with what we already have.

      In 2009 a friend and I had a conversation about a past Ki Shusui that was famous in Oz for its rare Ki and the unusual scale pattern. It was called the Chrysanthemum Shusui.

      Because Ki ( non metalic) is rare here we talked about the possibility of creating Ki Utsuri if we could only find some genetics from the Shusui. He said he had a Midori in his pond that came from that gene pool and after much discussion, and working out what males he had available, he suggested using his Kumonryu with her. His vision was brilliant! After some excited conversations it was decided to share some eggs so it could be a joint venture and also a way to ensure that some would survive if one of us had a problem and also a way to broaden the gene pool. The term Golden Dragon was coined during that conversation.

      We know it will be a long journey to try and produce a new variety that is fixed in its traits and repeatable in each spawn with a reasonable % of keepers but a journey is not possible without taking the first step.

      These are the first steps.

      Below are my first few notes:

      .................................................. ..

      The Midorigoi and Kumonryu spawned 21st October 2009
      I received eggs the next day and put them in a small floating net in the poly tunnel pond.

      Eggs hatched on the 25th/10/09
      Moved them to the Intex pool on 28/10/09

      2nd /11/09 they're 8 days old today.
      Some have Ki.
      Most are white and there are a few black based fry.
      They average around 1cm.

      4/1/10
      around 9 weeks old today. (63 days)
      Culled them and put around 20 in the mudpond.
      I kept a mix to see how they develop.

      ................................................

      Around the middle of February 2010 I was battling a water quality issue in the mudpond. I was walking the pond every day because of Methane gas pockets building up in the mud bottom. I also had my Kohaku fry in there but fry are too small to dig through the mud and release the gas. Huge water changes, walking the pond and adding crushed lime stone didn't help and the pond went belly up one night.
      I lost most of the fry by morning but managed to save a few and moved them to a filtered pond. I now only put the babies out in the mudpond once they are a year old and have had no further problems.

      A few photos below.


      Eggs


      Fry in the Intex pool.


      Culling day. Some of the keepers ready to released to the mudpond.


      No photos again until april 2011 after they had been put out in the mudpond again in September 2010 at almost 1 year old.

      Harvest photo in April 2011 of the Ki Kumonryu


      Harvest photo in April 2011 of the one Kumonryu sibling I kept.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


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    2. #2
      rainblood's Avatar
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      Did you have a #1?

      How did you figure out what to cull?
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    3. #3
      Bindi's Avatar
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      These were put back in the mudpond until September 2011 when they were harvested and put in a filtered pond so I could use the mudpond for the 2010 Tosai.
      I returned the Ki Kumonryu to the mudpond in January 2012 to grow on further until May when I will harvest the pond.

      The photos below of her are from January.









      You can see the Ki development and with the expanding ki you can see the shusui influence.
      The sumi is also starting to appear laterally and along with the motoguru development it is a good start for the future.

      I'll update photos in May after harvest.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    4. #4
      powerman's Avatar
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      cool... thanks for starting your thread.. I'm looking forward to more pics
      like they say, the journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step
      DAN







    5. #5
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by rainblood View Post


      Did you have a #1?

      How did you figure out what to cull?
      I only have the 1 Ki Kumonryu.
      I lost most of the ones with Ki when the mudpond went belly up.

      Culling was easy. I kept any with Ki and any Kumonryu with good scale alignment.

      Both her and her siblings will be used as parent fish once they are mature.
      I will be doing a spawn this coming season with an unrelated non metallic yellow doitsu (rare find) and kumonryu to produce more with Ki traits to use as future parents in the hope of consolidating the Ki and eventually stabilizing the traits.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    6. #6
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by powerman View Post
      cool... thanks for starting your thread.. I'm looking forward to more pics
      like they say, the journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step
      You're welcome!
      Thank you for your interest. It's fun to share.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    7. #7
      Koigrl's Avatar
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      Bindi, i'm late to the party!
      i've just taken a fast look ===
      will go back and give a good read.
      thanks for sharing.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
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    8. #8
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      well done!

      Bindi, first of all
      and sorry about the mudpond tragedy.

      i have a lot of questions. lots!

      what does your ideal ki kumunryu look like?
      is he all yellow with a blue zip like the one in the one in a billion thread?

      Are you expecting mutable sumi? mutable ki?

      i don't know very much about this type, only that the one i have in the learning curve pond has gone more and more black over time. it's pretty interesting, but what will that be like if you are trying for a yellow fish?

      what happened to the eggs your friend used and how are his results?

      i will have more of these, i'm sure.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


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    9. #9
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Hi!

      Thank you.
      Mudponds are an amazing resource but there is an art to them.
      I learned a lot from that and it was a lesson well learned.

      The traits I am trying to introduce are similar to the Beni Kumonryu but naturally producing Ki in place of the Beni. Ideally I still want to created a 3 coloured doitsu with a bilateral dorsal orientated Ki pattern, lateral sumi with motoguru, shiro on the face and interspersed through the Ki and sumi pattern. Dorsal scales can be any of these colours but would prefer a sumi zip.
      As you know Matsukawabake (Kumonryu) sumi is changeable but advancements in creating Kumonryu lines with more stable sumi is progressing in Japan where the pattern is more fixed earlier and less changeable with the seasons. One of the traits I am selecting my Kumonryu parents for is sumi stability.
      ( Yeah I know. Taking the fun out of it. )

      There are going to be a few hurdles in creating these traits in combination. As you know Ki can be fairly unstable and also has a tendency to go orange with age. Add to this the spreading white gene to create the bilateral dorsal orientated pattern and lateral sumi, that is hopefully more stable, and then time is needed to see that the Ki holds and that the sumi doesn't overpower it all.

      The Ki Kumonryu F1 is about 80% there but only time will tell what the sumi and Ki does. At this point I am waiting for its further development to see.
      The Ki needs lots of improvement to make it more stable, cohesive and uniform.
      This will be worked on in the next few generations.

      As you know when you add new genetics to introduce desired traits you will also get undesired traits. Taking the time to watch how they develop and learning what to cull for at an earlier age is all part and parcel of the creation process.

      My friend said that the rest of his spawn were kumonryu, some 'wannabe' beni kumonryu, doitsui kohaku and shusui. Some of the beni kumonryu started off with ki that turned to orange by the end of the first year.

      He has since bred them again and now has a few with Ki and developing sumi that show promise.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    10. #10
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      bindi -- what an amazing endeavor. there are so many mysteries to this idea of yours, many complex challenges. so, you want a tri-color fish with stable sumi.

      can hardly wait.



      Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




      Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

      Updated for the 2018 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

      Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
      https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

      If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
      Kichi loves company. Max


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    11. #11
      Leekinneykoi's Avatar
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      Great thread Bindi, it will be so much fun to watch, and it is so nice to see you posting I remember when you joined and you sure seem to have done your homework, thank you for sharing.
      My favorite Quotes:

      The person who makes no mistakes usually does not make anything.
      Everything starts as somebody's daydream
      Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn from no other


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    12. #12
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      Hi Bindi
      brilliant work so far ,so well done !can't wait to see the results ! and all the best as that would be a very nice Dream fish to have in the pond !.
      mine is a Midori showa goi ! first crossing last year,and I have a few fry from a pan experiment from last year and so far are looking good ,so with some luck I could have a Green Go sanke this year !lol !. fingers crossed !.

    13. #13
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Leekinneykoi View Post
      Great thread Bindi, it will be so much fun to watch, and it is so nice to see you posting I remember when you joined and you sure seem to have done your homework, thank you for sharing.
      Thank you! Wow, you have a good memory.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    14. #14
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by wayne1 View Post
      Hi Bindi
      brilliant work so far ,so well done !can't wait to see the results ! and all the best as that would be a very nice Dream fish to have in the pond !.
      mine is a Midori showa goi ! first crossing last year,and I have a few fry from a pan experiment from last year and so far are looking good ,so with some luck I could have a Green Go sanke this year !lol !. fingers crossed !.
      Cheers, Wayne!
      I'll be watching your spawning thread with interest too.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    15. #15
      Leekinneykoi's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bindi View Post
      Thank you! Wow, you have a good memory.
      LOL, it is easy when people were PMing asking if you were crocodile hunters Bindi, I said, it's possible the whole family are great animal people and I am not asking.
      My favorite Quotes:

      The person who makes no mistakes usually does not make anything.
      Everything starts as somebody's daydream
      Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn from no other


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    16. #16
      Bindi's Avatar
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      Lol. Bindi is a fairly common name here but no I don't have a little brother named Bob.
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


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      Wow, wonderful. I could see now why it called the Golden Dragon....the picture posted by RB look more like a Ki-Shusui there was not any black on it. I live here 30 years and I known only two Bindi, one daughter of Mr Crocrodile Hunter and....You....My be common where you are...hi..hi..thanks for sharing the Crazyness

    18. #18
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      Cheers, Kanga!
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


    19. #19
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      this is one thread to watch! thank you for sharing, it's going to be a journey for you and a great enjoyment for us to watch!

    20. #20
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      Thank you, Mary!
      Bindi
      ------

      "When it comes to breeding koi, there are no failures, just a delay in getting where you want to go, and in the process towards success, another chapter learned... Dick Benbow"


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