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  • Results 1 to 3 of 3

    Thread: Why Most Koiphen Members Discourage Rocks In Ponds!

    1. #1
      Leekinneykoi's Avatar
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      Thumbs up Why Most Koiphen Members Discourage Rocks In Ponds!

      The main reason many Koiphen members discourage rocks in ponds and the aquascape type watergardens, is simply because most of us have already experienced it ourselves or had to help others clean or re-build such types of systems.
      They are beautiful at first to look at but not at all very good for Koi.
      Pictures and members real life experiences will pretty much be the story teller of this thread, and I hope it helps those considering to build this type of pond to just re-think before going forward.
      This thread like many I create will have only a few posts from members threads, and in sections/groups of that particular member.
      At the end of each section I will paste the links to each thread in its entirety and encourage anyone considering a rock bottom pond to take the time to read all of these threads!!!!!!!!

      First from a member that realized her nightmare this year.
      Beckesj thread #1



      beckesj
      Senior Member



      Join Date: Jun 2007
      Location: Delaware
      Posts: 355





      Pictures of our huge rock removal job...it's ugly!!

      I've posted a few threads looking for advice on our green murky water, silt and snail problems. I hope this thread adds the photos I think will help everyone understand what we're in for with this huge task and also help those people who may be thinking of designing a new ponds with rocks for that natural look to maybe think again and forget it. It's not worth it after you learn the hard way. I hope they show up....The green algae photos were taken April 23rd the day we had it drained by a company and power washed...which are the clean looking photos that follow. Little did we no that having it power washed ruined our pond so badly and the people that did it contaminated our entire pond and all of our fish with parasites and possibly those tiny snails, etc. The 5 holding tanks they brought to house our fish during the job were never sanitized and each had pond water in them from previous jobs that day!! Horrible what we've been thru, didn't realize the effects until a week later and our fish were in there before I knew they hadn't been cleaned. Another hard lesson of new pond ownership, but it never takes a second time, it hurt too much the first time. Don't let that happen to you, fish are healthy now but they went thru a lot to get them free of all the uglies that came into the pond. Also the pond looked beautiful for approx. 3 days then started down hill and now it's green and murky and covered again with algae even after adding two 50 watt UV bulbs in May.




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      Some comments from this thread.
      steveamy
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jan 2005
      Location: Palm Beach County, FL
      Posts: 2,064




      I don't envy you at all. Look at that mess. You are right, anyone taking a look at that will think twice about the rocks in the bottom. All the junk is still waiting for you under those rocks. Good luck.



      ageraldi
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jul 2007
      Location: Lindenhurst, Illinois
      Posts: 530




      There are several local companies around my area that build ponds like that everyday. And for BIG cash. Then these companies call these ponds “koi ponds”. These are at best “water gardens” with maintenance. I hope everyone who sees your photos realizes that the invest made on all those rocks cost them time in the end. You will love your pond again SOON beckesj.



      ragenmoan
      Member


      Join Date: Jul 2007
      Location: los altos, ca
      Posts: 53




      were the shots of the cleaner pond before or after shots? i used to have an aquascape type rock bottom septic tank type koi pond and will never do it again! had the pond in place for 2 years. the pond builder offered an annual cleaning service for $500 bucks. looking at the amount of work required, the cost may be justified. most unfortunate that these type pond builders "bait" you with the pond and then "hook" you with the maintenance cost....!



      beckesj
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jun 2007
      Location: Delaware
      Posts: 355




      Quote:
      Originally Posted by cindy
      I would be passed p***ed. No telling what diseases were carried to your fish.
      I think I'd insist on vet bloodwork compensation to rule out khv.



      Lots of tears were shed over the past few months and I still feel sick thinking about the unknown. I even had to perform the removal of 68 anchor worms, some of the fish had multiple on them and others had none. It was the first time I ever held a fish in my hands in the water, they were each so good, I was told to cover their eyes with a wet towel underwater and it would keep them calm and it really did. My husband and I made quite a team that day. It made me feel a bond to each fish as I checked it over entirely and removed any anchor worms. We made sure we removed every fish and checked it over to be sure we didn't miss any and then carefully poured peroxide on each wound after removal. I could tell they were relieved, they were happy and I felt 100% better that I made myself take charge and do it. Added some microbe-lift wound healant to the pond and within 48 hours their wounds were all disappearing and healed very nicely without a trace there was ever anything attached Backed up my treatment of Dimilin 14 days later as required to be sure we zapped all traces. That was late May, no signs since removal. Then we treated for fluke worms in early June with that Parazi stuff. Within a day or so all flashing stopped and haven't seen a fish flashing in nearly 2 months. Now it's get the rocks out and improve the water, my test readings are still at good levels, but it's still so green and murky. Can't wait until it's done!


      Koi Empire
      Member


      Join Date: Nov 2004
      Location: Pemberton, NJ
      Posts: 51




      Quote:
      Originally Posted by birdman
      I've been there/done that my self. So I know what your going through. I only wish everyone could see this before they make the same mistake with their new ponds.



      Birdman,

      You are totally correct! If everyone would see this before doing there pond. I have seen so many ponds done this way and then have to remove all the rock they put in, or even worse, have to do it after they have lost tons of fish because of poor water quality do to making a pond this way.

      But Beckesj, don't give up, your doing the right thing!

      Jesse
      __________________
      Sincerely in Koi,



      Beckesj Thread #2


      beckesj
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jun 2007
      Location: Delaware
      Posts: 355




      PLEASE HELP! Rock removal job worst than expected/filter media in question

      Our huge pond rock removal job is not finished yet, results were absolutely horrible, the sludge under the rocks and it smelled even worse than it looks. We do have all the rocks out, what a huge difference in size. Cleaning liner is what's taking forever because the rocks and muck stained the liner so bad that it's taking multiple washings and brush scrubings to bring it back to a black. The advice we received before we started was not to power wash the algae because we'd be starting over like a new pond, well there was no algae anywhere after the rocks were removed so our nice neighbor felt sorry for us in the heat yesterday watching us trying to clean and offered his power washer which is working great on the stains. Now here are my real concerns, the fish seem to be doing pretty good, tests are good today, did a water change yesterday, will again today. Fed them a few pellets and fresh lettuce from our garden last night, they were so hungry. Are they going to be OK for another possible 36 hours as long as I do water changes and feed sparingly? They're in shade, water is 74 degrees. Our big problem is the media filter that we placed in a large garbage barrel filled with pond water on Sat. morning, it's beginning to smell not so good, have it covered with a lid smaller then can so there is air getting in there but it's cover with baby snails all over it and leaches. I know I've read that little red worms are a good sign on filter media but LEACHES, yuk won't they get on the fish? Should I buy a new Savio ribbon bio media or treat the one we have (only 4 months old) with something to kill all the snails and leaches? I know it will also kill the good stuff but we're just about beginning from scratch anyway and I can't bare to bring those snails back in after getting rid of thousands by removing the rocks, they multiple so quickly. Will the fish be able to go into the pond as soon as we start filling it up in less than two days, I have all the stuff we need to treat it, de-chlor, Microbelift-PL Stresscoat and salt if needed. I would make sure the water temp was within a few degrees, one reason why I'm keeping them so shaded so they remain in cooler water closer to the hose water temp. The pond is going to hold so much more water, my husbands thinking maybe 600 gallons, can't wait. What do we do about the snails leaches and media filter?? Looking for quick help in case I need to go purchase new stuff for start up. THANKS tons in advance!



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      Some comments from this thread.
      Luck
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jan 2007
      Location: Vancouver, WA
      Posts: 1,085




      looks like you have enough liner to fold it back and dig another foot deeper! Good time to do it. As far as the media is concerned it is going anaerobic (sp?) It needs some air and movement, can you put an airstone in the bottom of the barrel you have it in?



      Lee B
      Moderator - Team Koiphen


      Join Date: May 2004
      Location: Land O' Lakes, FL
      Posts: 7,957




      Do you have another container you can switch the media to? Fill it with fresh water, DECHLOR and add the media. It will be in fresh water. It is also pretty important to add an airstone or a pump to recirculate the water so it doesn't just sit there and go stagnant.

      As far as the red worms and leeches are concerned, no biggie: the leeches are more than likely the vegetation kind, no threat to your fish. And the snails? Good luck getting rid of them ; if you find a way to do it, please let the rest of us know.

      Not to rub it in, but now you know why most of us are so "down" on rocks: they may look pretty (there's no arguing that point), but they sure aren't good for the fish.

      I'm with the others: I think I'd take the opportunity to get rid of the plant shelves; even if you don't dig deeper, it will add hundreds of gallons to the pond. You need to make sure that you don't dig deeper than the liner can handle, because that would really be a bummer. The only way to rectify that problem would be to fill some of the depth back in.

      I know your backs are killing you, and it's a royal pain in the rump ... but your fish will thank you for this.



      beckesj
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jun 2007
      Location: Delaware
      Posts: 355




      Quote:
      Originally Posted by FishOCD
      When you do refill the pond, let it set for a day or two to bring the temp up before you add the fish. The water from the hose will be much colder than what they are in now. It will also give you a chance to look for leaks which can happen with all that rock removal. (I wouldn't worry about the stain removal too much as the liner will be covered in a layer of algae within a month.) Back to the fish: 600 gallons isn't enough for koi and the pond I see in the pic is very shallow which will put even goldfish at risk for predators and lethal temperature swings. As Noluck says: go deeper.



      What I should have said was we believe we're going to gain another 600 additional gallons added to the 2500 we already had. So the pond may be at least 3000 when we refill.





      Beckesj Thread #3


      beckesj
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jun 2007
      Location: Delaware
      Posts: 355




      Big Thanks To Everyone Who Helped Us Thru Ugly Rock Job!!!!

      Well we finally finished the ugly rock removal job which was the hardest task we ever took on, just the two of us(my husband and I) did the entire job. It was worse than ever expected but the end results are WONDERFUL!! Just look at the before and now photo(taken today). That top shelf is actually 12" under water even though it doesn't look it. Our fish are all fine, we put them back in the pond around 5:30 pm last night. Earlier in the day I had added all the water preparation solutions to prepare the water and let it run for several hours until the temperature warmed up to match the holding tanks. I absolutely love seeing our fish in a beautiful clean clear pond, they've been thru a really rough few months and our fish seem to be happy with their bigger space. We gained 600 gallons of water just by removing the 100's of rocks, so our water metered out to 3120 gallons. We did attempt to pull back the liner to dig out the center portion that divides the two deep areas but the company who installed the liner had it glued in places we needed to fold it back and also the two huge rocks on opposite corners are both sitting on the liner so we just had to forget it until probably spring time when we can plan better. But, other than still needing to design and build up a new rock edge all the way around, which we have more than enough of rocks to work with now, we're very pleased with the results so far and know things can only get better from this point. Gave away 28 fish, 2 small koi, two fantails and all the baby making goldfish, so now there's lots of room. I miss the plants but it's so much cleaner and very easy to see any dirt. We should expect a green algae coating on the liner soon correct? Haven't seen any snails yet but I'm not positive they're really gone. Will the frogs be OK if there aren't plants in the pond or will they move on? Just need to figure out the shade issue, maybe one of those shade sails I just read about on a recent thread but first purchase is a good pond vacuum. Thanks again to everyone for all the emergency help and great advice about removing all those rocks, you were so right about the difference it would make, I hope our pictures help encourage other pond owners to get rid of their rocks. We're so glad we found Koiphen!



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      Some comments from this thread. Happy Ending
      cindy
      KHA and Mod


      Join Date: May 2004
      Location: Mt. Wash. KY - 7 miles outside Louisville
      Posts: 23,025




      WOW Talk about before and after

      You can still have potted plants on the shelves.



      Leekinneykoi
      Proud Member of the Koiphen Team


      Join Date: Aug 2005
      Location: Colerain, Ohio (Belmont Co.)
      Posts: 11,948




      Quote:
      Originally Posted by cindy
      Oh and don't panic if you get an algae bloom. New ponds do.



      Yep it may turn to pea soup but if you upgraded some filters and have a UV, that will clear in time. Looks 10000000% better.



      birdman
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jun 2005
      Location: Crooked River Ranch, Or.
      Posts: 4,553




      Boy that looks a lot better. Well worth the effort.



      SouthernStarr
      Proud Member of the Koiphen Team


      Join Date: May 2004
      Location: Charleston, SC
      Posts: 13,801




      WOW! Your pond is looking great



      Lee B
      Moderator - Team Koiphen


      Join Date: May 2004
      Location: Land O' Lakes, FL
      Posts: 7,957




      I can't deny the "charm" of rocked ponds, that is until you move some of the rocks around and find out what's under them. :eeek: All that gunk under the rocks would have slowly poisoned the fish, and the cooties that live there are truly gross.

      I know it was a nasty, thankless job .. but soon the liner will cover over with algae and it will be a nice place for your finny friends to live.

      Ya done good, Kid!



      ageraldi
      Senior Member


      Join Date: Jul 2007
      Location: Lindenhurst, Illinois
      Posts: 530




      Welcome to the world of owning a “koi Pond”! You and your pond are a great example of what can be achieved with a little bit of knowledge and understanding. You did a great job. Be proud!!!!!! Looks great!



      Joey S
      Moderator


      Join Date: Jul 2006
      Location: Jacksonville, FL
      Posts: 8,138




      I am SOOOO happy for you and your fish. Must admit I was getting a bit worried about the fish in the temp tank. What a job to take on and complete in such a short time. Really, you should be proud of what you have accomplished and the fantastic improvements you've made.




      Please read all three of these threads
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63004
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63352
      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63587
      My favorite Quotes:

      The person who makes no mistakes usually does not make anything.
      Everything starts as somebody's daydream
      Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn from no other


      Proud Annual Charter Member # 3

    2. #2
      Leekinneykoi's Avatar
      Leekinneykoi is offline Proud Member of the Koiphen Administrators Team
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      This section is all Kent Wallace, one of the most respected Koi Pond builders in the nation .
      All of these threads were rock bottom muck holes Kent had the filthy task of re-designing.
      Look-Read-Learn!!!!!
      PS: Working on smell-vision

      Kent Wallace
      The luckiest man in the world

      Join Date: Aug 2004
      Location: Las Vegas NV
      Posts: 2,403



      Gee pond Retro

      I haven't posted any projects lately so I thought I'd start with this one.
      The customer had a 25000 gallon pond with peas soup green water. Actually it was several shades of green swirling in green. She has about 20 koi and maybe 60 to 80 goldfish with a horrible and inadequate filtration system. She couldn't afford to filter that much water so we ended up making it smaller.
      This way we could do it with two systems instead of four.


      I will not post replies to these threads as Kent is not seeking our help but is teaching in all of his threads .
      The pictures are only tiny samples of what is in every one of these threads, so read them all,,,,, and you will gain more knowledge than you thought existed on pond building.
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      Kent Wallace
      The luckiest man in the world

      Join Date: Aug 2004
      Location: Las Vegas NV
      Posts: 2,403



      Hundley pond retro

      I haven't posted much in the pas couple pf weeks, been busy. I thought this one might be of some interest. It's another AS style pond that I will retrofit for a bottom drain (Aqua Art) settling tank (wave 24) UV light, additional filtration, Wave 1 1/6 hp pump. You know, just the basics that happened to be left off the original build. I'm guessing about 3000 gallons.
      I love the concept of the auto fill behind the net or pad in the skimmer so it never actually reads pond level. Please someone try to defend this stuff so I can feel better.
      All the wasted space around the biofiter box by mounding up sand and rocks.


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      Kent Wallace
      The luckiest man in the world

      Join Date: Aug 2004
      Location: Las Vegas NV
      Posts: 2,403



      Pond retro "Charles" pond

      Ok Koiphenville I've gone from 20,000 gallons to a pond redo of about 3000 gallons. This pond belongs to Mr. and Mrs. Charles and is a "loose rocks everywhere", skimmer and biofilter never serviced because it was always falling apart type of pond. I run into these all the time and it's a shame. Let's fix it! We're going to remove everything and start with new liner. That decision was made after we saw how much sludge was there and that it was only 2ft deep even with rocks removed. With a new piece of liner I can make it a little deeler. I'm going to raise the edge about 4 inches and go about three inches deeperI'd like to go more but the ground is solid and It's completely surrounded by finished landscape with no more access for equipment. It's not deep enough for serious koi owners but this is mostly a decorative pond with goldfish and some koi. We're going to have to crowd the equipment into the side of the pond and elimninate the 20ft waterfall. Too much water waste and splash for an area in drought and high summer temps. We'll add a 3" bottom drain, a wave 24 settling tank, savio compact skimmer, UVP 905 chamber type uv light and power it with Williams smallest pump, the wave I 1/8 hp (3960 gph at 3.47 ft of head). Let the games begin and for you faint of heart you are about to see what's under an "unkept" loose rocks on the bottom pond. No reflection on those of you who have a rock bottom pond and take care of it. Please chime in with your questions, opinions and suggestions (like anyone in koiphenville needs permission to express your opinions).


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      Kent Wallace
      The luckiest man in the world

      Join Date: Aug 2004
      Location: Las Vegas NV
      Posts: 2,403



      Nachus retro

      It seems like much more than half of my business is in retros these days. It would be nice to actually see what's at the bottom before I start. It's hard to see more than a few inches into this one.
      It's a concrete pond completely landscaped in with garden hose and one of those horrible Little Giant red floats. It measured 2500 gallons when we were finished and had a clogged Triton ll sand filter. It barely flowed and someone had installed a surface skimmer on the edge but I couldn't tell how it was attached.


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      Kent Wallace
      The luckiest man in the world

      Join Date: Aug 2004
      Location: Las Vegas NV
      Posts: 2,403



      Tuminmia Retro

      I was recently reminded that showing the sludge at the bottom of a poorly built pond can't be done enough so here's a Tranquility Ponds retro we completed a couple of months ago. I don't have as many pics as usual and don't have detailed before pics. We had to keep the filtration to the original footprint except for the settlement tank and pump box.
      The only thing we're keeping is the waterfall. These "cookie cutter" ponds are all over the valley.
      I wonder what's under those rocks????????Hmmmm


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      Ok Now you may notice rocks and sand back in some of Kent's builds , but read the threads, there is a difference in loose rocks/gravel and mortared solid with no anaerobic hiding places.

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34636

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17347

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9005

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19318

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26059
      My favorite Quotes:

      The person who makes no mistakes usually does not make anything.
      Everything starts as somebody's daydream
      Experience is a dear teacher, but fools will learn from no other


      Proud Annual Charter Member # 3

    3. #3
      cindy's Avatar
      cindy is offline Moderator ~ WWKC Vice President ~
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      Great thread, I can "smell" the bottom.
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


      K.O.I.

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      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...nd-Information

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...06#post2606106 Show thread

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