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    Thread: Planed Concrete Construction

    1. #1
      I_Broke_It's Avatar
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      Talking Planed Concrete Construction

      Hi,

      I am new to the hobby and would like to have some input in to how I need to go about completing a project like in the attached. There is a fall of between 500 to 1000 (2-3 feet) and I would like to have the small pond to be on the top level and the big pond on the lower level. Most of the paved area would need to be on the level with the small pool as I would not like to undermine the foundations of my house. For the same reason I think it would be wise to do the ponds in concrete as well.

      For the big pond I was thinking of having a sloping bottom starting at 1500 (5 ft) and ending with 1800 (6 ft) with two bottom drains. I would like to have a water fall from the small pond.

      For filtration I was thinking of having a settelment chamber, foam fractioner and algae scrubber. I was thinking of covering the filter pit with a deck. I was also thinking of installing solar heating.

      Please let me know if there is any thing that I left out (I am sure there is tunes) as well as your opinions on my initial design.

      Thanks in advance.
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    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      Welcome to Koiphen!

      Can you give the dimensions of the upper and lower ponds? It'll give others a better sense of
      the volume of the ponds...

      I've always kind of considered Foam Fractionators as an extra "add on" type filter. If the
      pond will have Koi, I'd plan for more bio filters with the settling chamber, and put my foam fractionator
      on a seperate circuit with the water coming from a skimmer and through a sand and gravel filter, then
      back to the upper pond.
      I'm not familiar with what an "algae scrubber" is?
      Last edited by icu2; 01-09-2011 at 06:49 PM. Reason: "an" before a vowel. :-)
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    3. #3
      mtsklar is offline Senior Member
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      When the koiphen design committee comes to the table they are going to want to know:

      1. The length, width and depth of both ponds
      2. The size in gallons of your settlement chamber
      3. Wheather the settlment chamber is round or rectangular


      From that information they will be able to:
      1. Recommend the proper number of drains and pipe size
      2. Recommend the proper number of surface skimmers
      3. Determine the number of return lines needed with proper pipe sizing
      4. Specify space saving mechanical filtration
      5. Specify bio-filtration


      Pump count and size as well as UV will be based on pond volume also.
      Estimated budget helps if you are open to disclose that.

      Please consider a short paragraph on your expectations for the koi you plan to keep.

      Have you tested your source water yet? Make sure you know what is in it in case any water treatments are required to make it safe for fish.

      Please explain your concept of an algae scrubber.

    4. #4
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      Post

      Hi to a new forum member

      A quick look at your plan says it's a good basis to form a great pond.

      Food for thought -

      The shape of your pond and the waterfall feeding one end lend themselves well to a streamflow pond design. (search forum & google) - terms streamflow, riverflow, Onishi)

      Solar heating - Wikipedia says "temperatures in Johannesburg are usually fairly mild due to the city's high altitude. The temperature occasionally drops to below freezing at night, causing frost."

      So if not a major slice of the budget is attributed to solar, and you have good sun exposure it would be beneficial to use it. Have you a particular solar design in mind? Please describe or show a diagram.

      Algal scrubbers (Google) require lots of direct sunlight to effectively remove nitrate, phosphate and nuisance algae - is this sun exposure a site feature?

      The top (small) pond - if no fish in it, you could consider designing it as a bio-filter with
      waste removing plants, or anoxic (forum search) filtration.

      Interesting project

      John

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    5. #5
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      Welcome to Koiphen.

      Pond size and dimensions will definagely dictate our recommendations. The main difference between a "water garden" and a true koi pond is filtration. Take a read on this thread that is in the FYI sticky thread at the top of the construction forum. It will give a good overview of potential filtration options. I believe a FF is gravity outleted so not an option in a fitler pit. Not sure what an algeo scrubber is...maybe a UV?

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...tration-Basics
      MN Mike

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      My Pond Construction
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    6. #6
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      Talking Planed Concrete Construction

      Hi, Thanks for all the interest.

      General => I did put a scale on my drawing but just to make it clear top pond is 1800 across (6ft) and 1200 (4 ft) deep and the bottom one is 3000w * 5000l * 1500 to 1800d (10 * 16.5 * 5 - 6 ft)

      >I was thinking the settlement chamber for solid wast ( the skimmer will collect all the leafs up front.
      >The FF for DOCs
      >Algae scrubber for N and P filtration (Bio filtration). Rather than having a planted area, that I am still thingking about. Have a medium (shade cloth) where I create a great place for algae to grow the alge is removed every week and with it the N and P.

      I was thinking of having two circuits one on a small pump that will take from the sc go to the solar heating then ff to the small pond and then split it between the bd and Algae scrubber (as)
      The second circuit will have a big pump that will flush the pipes. This will run sc then bead filter then small pond. The second pump will run an hour a day total (devided 2 to 4 times) where the small pump will run all day.

      Icu2 => Thanks, Pond dimensions, Algae scrubber see general.

      Mtsklar => Thanks. I have no idea how big and the shape the sc should be. I am only limited by the space that I have allocated for the pit 1000 * 5000 (3 * 16.5 ft) I can go as deep as is practical. There can be multiple sc as well. I thought that I can pour it/them from concrete.
      >The fish. I was thinking of a low stocking density but I also know that there is always space for one more. I know nothing about good and bad koi only that I like them. I would prefer to have a few valuable specimens than a lot of bad ones.
      >Source water – is drinking water from the municipality. What do I need to test to see if it is save or if I drink and and not get sick it is fine?!?

      Koizilla => Thanks. I read quite a lot about the stream principle and I like the concept for getting the dirt to the extraction point. I just think that at that point a bd with a sc is a better combination to concentrate the dirt more before getting it out of the system. So I will follow the principal for accumulation of the dirt but not have the airlift part.
      >Solar – our temperature is mild. So the solar around here is very light. It would consist of two thick pipes one at the top and one at the bottom with a lot of thin pipes combining them. This is enough to raise the temp by up to 10 ` C (20'F) This should keep the pond temp at min 20'C (68`F). Winter sorted summer might be a problem if it runs as it could push the temp up to 40`C (104`F). I can just switch it of and or run the water fall. Sun shine on avarage between 10 to 14 hours a day.
      >Algae scrubbers – 10 to 14 hour direct sunlight for site. AS will be north facing (remember I am southern hemi so this is where the sun comes from.
      >Anoxic – I might put a plant or two in for ascetic reasons but the main plant factory will be the algae. Same idea I think Algae is just more efficient and easier to harvest.

      Mpageler =>Thanks for the link very informitive. The FF will run after the solar heater or solar heater bypass that will be located on my roof.

      Thanks for all the input I am still new and might have a lot of misconceptions that is why I came here to get it all ironed out. Please ask if something is not clear or in your opinion incorrect. I have still a lot to learn.

      Thanks Again.

    7. #7
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      Hi,

      I have being trying to post pics off the site. Last night just before I was ready to give up I figured out that they are the wrong size but my time was up (bed time). So will post them when I get home after work.

      Thanks.

    8. #8
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      I_B_I,

      The main pond is about 6500 U.S. gallons. Plan on a main pump that will move at least that much water per hour. It should run continuously.
      The upper pond is about 1600 U.S. gallons. The circuit you run on this will dictate the pump. Be aware of "head pressure" when dealing with lifting water.
      If you are going to spill water from the upper to the lower pond then 150 gallons per inch of water fall width is a good place to start. ie. 12 inch wide waterfall needs 1800 gallons per hour.

      Regarding your source water. Call your municipality and ask them what they put in the water. In the U.S. chlorine is a common water treatment and it must be neutralized.

      Sodium thiosulfate is very inexpensive and very safe to use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_...ate#Other_uses

      With respect to solar heating, I am concerned that you will have difficulty maintaining a stable temperature for the koi. Koi need stability.

      The raceway filter your are planning is a design that has been used in Japan for a long time. What type of media do you plan to use in it? Do you know anyone in your area that has this type of filtration? I ask because there is such a wide range of methods for filtration. The filter you have planned may be inexpensive to build however there are other designs that are much easier to clean.

    9. #9
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      Some Images of my yard.
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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by mtsklar View Post
      I_B_I,

      The main pond is about 6500 U.S. gallons. Plan on a main pump that will move at least that much water per hour. It should run continuously.
      The upper pond is about 1600 U.S. gallons. The circuit you run on this will dictate the pump. Be aware of "head pressure" when dealing with lifting water.
      If you are going to spill water from the upper to the lower pond then 150 gallons per inch of water fall width is a good place to start. ie. 12 inch wide waterfall needs 1800 gallons per hour.

      Regarding your source water. Call your municipality and ask them what they put in the water. In the U.S. chlorine is a common water treatment and it must be neutralized.

      Sodium thiosulfate is very inexpensive and very safe to use. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_...ate#Other_uses

      With respect to solar heating, I am concerned that you will have difficulty maintaining a stable temperature for the koi. Koi need stability.

      The raceway filter your are planning is a design that has been used in Japan for a long time. What type of media do you plan to use in it? Do you know anyone in your area that has this type of filtration? I ask because there is such a wide range of methods for filtration. The filter you have planned may be inexpensive to build however there are other designs that are much easier to clean.
      Thanks for the help.

      Stupid question why do I need to move so mutch water?

      Our municipality use clorine in their water. I was thinking of getting a auto top up. If the water is added slow enough do I need to remove the chlorine.

      In regard with the solar heating. Why do you say it will create a temperarure flux?

      Filtration is in a long pit. I was thinking of having a settlement chamber in there and on one sercuit a bead filter. I am not sure if I will need all the space that I have alocated. To tell the truth I am only started this project and are open to any ideas.

      Tonight I will see if I can do a drawing of what the filtration should look like. At the moment is is just broad ideas.

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    11. #11
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      I_B_I,

      I was just looking at some of the resources online for South African koi keepers. I must admit I had a little trouble finding equipment vendors. So some of the things that American systems have will be quite different for you.

      Do you interact with SAKKS? http://www.koisa.co.za/index.php/about-sakks

      Matt

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by mtsklar View Post
      I_B_I,

      I was just looking at some of the resources online for South African koi keepers. I must admit I had a little trouble finding equipment vendors. So some of the things that American systems have will be quite different for you.

      Do you interact with SAKKS? http://www.koisa.co.za/index.php/about-sakks

      Matt
      Thanks Matt had a look there. not much new to what I found on this site. It looks like any body can help me with the basics. The only difference is that a cold winters day here is about 15C (59f) max and min about 5C (41F) The coldest day in my area ever recorded was -2C (28F). So I do not have to worry to much that my pond will freeze.

      I know there is lots of people here that have extensive knowledge on how to keep my pond in perfect condition. That will also be able to sort trough my plan to get it working for me.

    13. #13
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      Thumbs up Draft 4

      I have up-dated the Plan with my first filter set-up.

      Any comments Please.
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    14. #14
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      Hi,

      Please comment on my design I do not know if it flawless or total idiotic or if more information is needed. I would love to get the planning done and start digging.

      Thanks

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      IBI,
      It is difficult to read the text on your drawing.
      From what I see :
      You have 3 return lines in the small upper pond and 4 in the large pond.
      The flow in the larger pond looks like it is set up for cross flow or river flow.
      It looks like you have one skimmer on the large pond.
      In the filter you have a sand filter after the pump that goes up to the upper pond/waterfall.
      Many will agree here that a pressurized sand filter is not the way to go with koi. A much safer alternative is to use an up flow Sand and Gravel filter : https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-EZR-BIOFILTER

      These can be constructed in smaller versions as well, but are typically placed at the head of the water fall. The are much safer for koi because they are not prone to channeling internally and then going foal.

      Please specify what size pipes you are thinking about using as this will greatly affect the performance of the pond.
      Last edited by mtsklar; 01-20-2011 at 10:07 AM.

    16. #16
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      Please see responses in BLUE:
      Quote Originally Posted by I_Broke_It View Post
      Thanks for the help.

      Stupid question why do I need to move so mutch water?
      You will find that the pond performs better if you are turning the water at least once per hour. The fish will be much healthier and the pond will be cleaner.


      Our municipality use clorine in their water. I was thinking of getting a auto top up. If the water is added slow enough do I need to remove the chlorine.
      Find a source for Sodium Thiosulfate, there will be times when you are adding, or changing volumes of water. Especially during after you empty your settling chamber.

      In regard with the solar heating. Why do you say it will create a temperarure flux?
      Will this solar heating system have digital temperature control ?
      Filtration is in a long pit. I was thinking of having a settlement chamber in there and on one sercuit a bead filter. I am not sure if I will need all the space that I have alocated. To tell the truth I am only started this project and are open to any ideas.
      What kind of filters or filter media is available in South Africa?


      Tonight I will see if I can do a drawing of what the filtration should look like. At the moment is is just broad ideas.

    17. #17
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      Thanks mtsklar.

      I will have to go and so some home work. I battle to find places and the ones I find have got limited stock. Like the most bottom drains I find have got 2" pype conectors and I understand the bigger the better. I would like to go for the 110 mm (4.33") pype that is a standard sewer pype here and I found one plase that stock bottom drains that size.

    18. #18
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      As a backup plan, if you're unable to find regular bottom drains, toilet flanges will work.
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    19. #19
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      Hi,

      ICU2 => Thanks will have a look into it.

      General => Sorry for the quality of my plan. I only saw it when mtsklar popointed it out. Will see if I can get the writing cleaned up.

      Thanks for all the help soo far.

    20. #20
      I_Broke_It's Avatar
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      I was thinking of doing a sand filter like described by Birdman here. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...-Gravel-Filter This will be for my big pump circute. How big should I make it. Is this the best that I can do?

      Thanks.

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