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    Thread: The ultimate airlift pond?'s

    1. #1
      ben5020's Avatar
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      The ultimate airlift pond?'s

      Well my pond has had it's troubles, I am planning a new build in the spring. 15x35x6 concrete pond, two or three bd's, tpr's, two skimmers, diy 300w uv, aquadyne 4.4 for skimmers, gctek 9.0 for bd's, 2 Cetus sieves ( or similar brand) 500 gal tank for bio. Please chime in with the best way to utilize airlift. Thanks in advance
      Ben

    2. #2
      mtsklar is offline Senior Member
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      Air lifts work great with gravity flow filters.
      The gctek and the aquadyne you have listed will require pumps. The 500 gal tank for bio...what do you plan there a moving bed?

      Matt

    3. #3
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      If you're planning on using air-lifts I hope you haven't purchased any filtration equipment yet, Air-lifts work with very low head flow through filtration and cannot support sieves or pressurized filtration. I like to build the air-lifts inside the filtration but they can be mounted externally as well. I have also built ponds that are half air-lift and half standard pond pump to run a floating microscreen on the pre-filtration side and a waterfall on the filter side of half the system.
      What type of aesthetics are you looking for? What's the overall shape and layout? Do you already have any equipment that you would like to incorporate into your build?
      Your pond will be over 20,000 gallons. That's a lot of water which gives you a lot of options in filtration layout.

    4. #4
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      As it has been stated already the bead filters will have to go if you want to use airlifts.

      I do have to disagree with Kent about the airlifts and sieves! I have designed a filter that incorporates airlifts, a sieve, and biological filtration all in one package. It is customizable to suit your needs, and takes up a very small amount of space. If you want to use airlifts in your pond, please stop purchasing equipment now, and talk with either Kent or I about construction and plumbing considerations to airlift driven ponds.

      Zac
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    5. #5
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      i am against using any sort of cylinder shape container 55 gallon drums, 100 gallon drums 330, 500 550 gallon etc... tanks for your size pond. due to space. of fitting a round plug into a square hole. you end up wasting a bunch of space. which only gets filled with more plumbing trying to run around the round plugs errr cylinder shape containers.

      about the only type of filters that do benefit form being cylinder shape. are settling chambers that rely on vortexing / whirl pool like current in them. all other filters could be cubed shape, rectangular shape etc... and work just as good. if not better due to being able to add more media per amount of space that is taken up of your yard.

      ok pressurized filters then need to be egg shape to help handle pressure better for structural integrity. but that is another doing.
      bio filters, fines filters, mechanical filters, all other types of pre filters, can be square, rectangle, triangle, rhombus shape, longer snaked like shape chamber, as long as water disperses and flows through the media fairly evenly and no major channeling of water. it works. and some times even better than trying to use a cylinder shape container.

      =================
      air lifts need gravity flow filters. both gravity in and gravity out flowing, not one or the other. but both ways.

      i am on side line between kent's and zac's statements of sieves. sieves can cause some major static head loss. and air lifts are not ment to really raise water above its source water. a few inches and after that the efficiency of an air lift starts taking a steep noise dive. due to air required and size of air pump needed.

      what pushes me more towards kent comment of sieves and air lifts is a bad thing. is when you will need to have a combo air lift and water pump setup for a pond, water pump being for a waterfall. and that water going to waterfall is being relied on to be filtered. and counted as overall filtered turn over rate for the pond. when this happens you end up needing 2 different filter circuits.

      generally these circuits are the following
      skimmers, filteation, water pump filteration, waterfall
      botto drains, sieves air lifts, filteration, returns on pond.

      above can work. just fine, on smaller size ponds. but when you get into larger size ponds as you have. trying to have multi type of filters and some of them being same type of filters. can become more of a pain in the rear to maintain and keep clean. vs just going with single larger filters. ((see ""filter tree"" diagram below))

      in the filter tree diagram. i placed water pump and air lifts far away from pre filters (err sieves) reason for this is. if i placed either air lifts and/or water pumps near pre filters you would end up needing to have another water pump, to pump water to a waterfall. and in essences would be double pumping water which is not efficient. resulting in sieves being a bad thing. for a pond that is primarly driven by air lifts.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    6. #6
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      waste load in a larger size pond.

      in larger size ponds, your phsyical waste load of large size muck can be smaller compare to other size muck. result in pre filters not filling up with muck. like they can, and the focus is then placed on pre filters that can handle higher flow rates, but have a smaller size waste build up area. before they need to be cleaned. and because of that, rectangular setting chambers tend to work better in my opionin, granted they don't settle as much muck as they could. but next stage filteration "mech filteration" is covered. to help deal with con's of the rectangular shape smaller sized settling chamber.

      ==================

      mech filteration. your goal of mechanical filteration, is to have enough media that can be easily cleaned, that traps majorty of all the muck. (exception fines) having to much mechanical filteration media that has large surface area, can be a very bad thing. due to good bio bugs will start grow in the mechanical filter media. and generally mechanical filter media, you want to clean fairly well and aggressively, to remove all the muck. and that rough cleaning can cause good bio bugs to be washed away as well. and if you don't have enough mechanical filteration media. muck will spill over into bio filteration media and plug it up,
      other words there is such as thing as having to much or to little mechanical filteration.

      mech filteration media, folks have used brushes ((prefed name brane is "black night brushes", mainly due to amount of bristels and size of the brushes, and easy of cleaning vs other types of cheaper brushes, granted you pay for them)) large size back twist, larger size pvc shavings, very open celled mats, would be your choices of media. brushes and mats, lend themselves to being a pain many times in cleaning them. but when using rectangle shape filter chambers. and being able to pick a sheet of mat up at a time, can make things much easier to deal with. back twist and pvc shavings, can use an air cleaning manifold to help assist in cleaning the media, make things more easier as in open and closing valves and not really getting your hands wet.

      as i noted above about con's of smaller size rectangular settling chamber. you will most likely have a couple different media's in the mechanical chamber. perhaps a row or 2 of brushes, then either back twist or pvc shavings or some mats. i state brushes first, due to they can collect alot of more muck. and able to lift a row up and out (when hung from a pipe) and quickly spray them down. or swish the row of brushes in the water to remove majorty of the muck. but brushes won't catch everything, and reason for some additional type of media behind them before going to next chamber (bio)

      there is a couple other alternatives. for mechanical filteration, and that is setting up "micro screen with spray bars for self cleaning micro screens" or "answer's units" water basicly sprays muck away from the screen so the screens don't clog up. but these alternatives do require a minature water pump to run them. it has been some time and i forget suggested flow rates, i want to say 500 gph per micro screen, and don't remember what is needed for the "answer units" being that they use micro screens they can help remove more smaller size muck. but one of the down falls. is due to they forcely spray muck away from the screens. they can cause some muck to break up into smaller size fine particles. it is a compromise of cleaning and space that is taken up between these and the brushes / mats / pvc shavings / backtwist for mechanical filteration.

      ======================
      external leaf basket filter chamber.

      i should of placed this above mech filteration, due to being a pre filter, but any ways, due to your size of pond. walking around the pond to clean 2 skimmer baskets on a daily basis can get old fairly fast. and then when it comes times for fall. skimmer baskets can get full really fast. by going with external leaf basket filter. you will be able to have a bigger size chamber that can hold more leaves. and not have to clean as often. place a central location to deal with cleaning your filters. plus you wouldn't have to look at some huge bulky skimmers setting pond side.

      skimmers see leaves, twigs, etc... and ya really don't need much but a some grating or mesh bag to capture the leaves in. and with this filter flowing to mechanical filteraiton. there is no need for any addtional media or like in this chamber. it is plainly just one very large sized leaf basket. that is placed back in the filter pit.

      =========================
      bio filteration.

      japanese filteration systems is what i call them. tend to use alot of ""mats"" and ""foam"" to deal with bio filteration. now adays, getting small sized plastic media, like k1, small size backtwist, smaller pvc shavings, and like media. have become much cheaper and affordable and easier to clean!!! just because you have this large size pond doesn't mean you need a extermely large bio filter. or less you plan to stock this pond extremely high. you size amount of bio filteration media, pending on type, size, age, of fish, and amount they get feed. start out with a small amount of media, and as your "herd grows" add more media as needed. you never said any sort of stocking rate or like so not enough info for folks to help ya size bio filter out.

      ===================
      fines filteration

      you will more than likely have more problems with fines filteration more than anything. large surface area. 6 feet really not that deep but combined with surface area. could make your fish clear on other side of pond look fuzzy and hard to see.

      fines filteration is the one place, i am actually willing to and actually suggest using "mat and foam" media. BUT only when used and placed correctly in a filter chamber, and the filter chamber needs to be square / rectangular in shape. you will most likely want a few different desenties of foam / mats. from inlet side not dense but open foam / mat. then towards outlet side, denser open cell mat / foam media. you only need a couple layers of each to start with. then add a layer of different desentiy foam or mat, as needed. every pond is different, and a rectangle chamber that can hold a few more layers of foam or mat media. can allow you to dynamically change things by just adding media with no other changes to the filtration system.

      ====================
      with you going with air lifts, you can make a combo air lift / foam fractionator. out of one of the air lifts or 2.

      i have a dedicated chamber for air lifts, and pipe lines going to returns on pond. you can do the typical manifold setup of (wyes, tees, ball valves) but they can add extra head loss. again ya asked for ultimate air lift setup. so removing all head loss possible. i am going to suggest using stand pipes, that are modfied some with a female / male electrical threaded adaptors and fernco fitting.

      other words a pipe that comes up through bottom of the chamber a few inches, then fernco fitting, then another peice of pipe going straight up. then female / male threaded electrical fitting adapters. and what you do to set flow rate to each return. is set the top of the female / male adaptors just barely under water level. further the pipe is under water the more GPH that will goto that return.
      another way to think about it. the pipe work going to the returns, kinda act like overflows in this chamber. and you just adjust how high a pipe is to control flow rate of water to each return.

      =====================
      dry chamber,

      spot to hold UV's, air pumps, water pump for waterfall, electrical, any filter that might be needed to treat source water such as city water.
      and one major thing the sump pit with a submerable ""trash pump "" that can handle ""solids"" that is on a float switch. placing this in dry chamber and into the floor, helps to insure if any water does get into this chamber, gets pumped out, and nothing gets flooded.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    7. #7
      boggen's Avatar
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      going with manufactored filters, vs diy plastic filters like 55 gallon drums 230 or 330 square tex filters, or other size plastic containers. vs going with 2x4 or 2x6's with plywood and liner or drop in liner or concrete with xyprex mixed in.

      ultimate air lift system. is reducing as much head loss as possible. and that means less pipe work and less fittings the better. and keeping a low budget.

      the diagram is not to scale or anything, but if you looked at enough folks pond builds, you will understand by "spaghetti mess" of pipe work. and trying to figure out how some folks are able to sqeeze in and clean any filters or get to things because of the pipe work.

      and to re-enforce, larger pond and going with larger single type of filters, vs smaller size filters that are of same type. is to reduce the spaghetti mess of pipe work. and make more use of space.

      p.s. in bottom diagram showing rectangular shape filter chambers, i combined bio and fine filter chambers together. due to these media's don't get cleaned as often compared to, external leaf basket iflter, settling chamber, and mechanical filter chamber. it saves some cost, but allows more freedom between amount of bio media needed vs fines filteration media needed.

      willing to explain more, help out more, but waiting to see what way you end up going.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Last edited by boggen; 12-17-2010 at 02:15 PM.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    8. #8
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      Wow, Now we're all confused. Suddenly round tanks aren't any good??????? for anything but vortex settlement chambers.
      Vertical upflow plugflow filters are absolutely better with round containers. Creating even water distribution and pathway flow is much easier to control in a round vertical container than in a square or rectangular container. This is a much overlooked parameter in filter design. Just because you have some extra volume doesn't mean it's being put to good use. It's more difficult to make good use of all the space in a large square container vs a rount tank.
      Rectangular tanks are good for horizontal flow through from one end to the other through various medias in plug flow design because the flow is one direction from one end to the other.
      A square tank has useless corners that must be circulated where a round tank doesn't.
      Ryan's posts and this one of mine should be removed from Ben's thread and moved to a thread of their own. This just confuses a thread that is about someones attempt to build and air-lift pond.
      As far as air-lifts go "RYAN", having multiple tanks in a row is a detriment because the draw down from tank to tank reduces the efficiency and raises the head needed to return the water to the pond lowering the total flow.
      Just as in any good pump based system the flow should be pre-filtration to bio and back to pond.
      TWO TANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!for each circuit.

    9. #9
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      Ben,

      We have a great alternative to airlift setup. Many airlift converts have contacted us with some issues after converting there ponds to airlift systems.
      Some of the issues relayed were lower flow rates then claimed, excessive sediment in bottom drains due to below minimum flow rates, utilities used
      with the amount of expensive air pumps required to achieved desired flow rate, complexity of setup, and of course lack of head pressure or lift.

      Our one of kind small axial flow pumps will move lots of water with modest head pressure and at the same time consume the lowest amount of utilities.
      We can help you design your pond to accomodate our pumps. They are very simple to setup and will run for years.

      More into:

      www.aquatechmfg.com

      Andy


    10. #10
      pearlharborday is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
      Ben,

      We have a great alternative to airlift setup. Many airlift converts have contacted us with some issues after converting there ponds to airlift systems.
      Some of the issues relayed were lower flow rates then claimed, excessive sediment in bottom drains due to below minimum flow rates, utilities used
      with the amount of expensive air pumps required to achieved desired flow rate, complexity of setup, and of course lack of head pressure or lift.

      Our one of kind small axial flow pumps will move lots of water with modest head pressure and at the same time consume the lowest amount of utilities.
      We can help you design your pond to accomodate our pumps. They are very simple to setup and will run for years.

      More into:

      www.aquatechmfg.com

      Andy

      Andy,,are you a WWKC pro member???????????????

    11. #11
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      Andy, who's air-lift systems were they using?

    12. #12
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      Kent, I did not get any details on names of builders, but there was three individuals from this site that had designed there
      set up based on info found here.

    13. #13
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
      Kent, I did not get any details on names of builders, but there was three individuals from this site that had designed there
      set up based on info found here.

      That is the problem...They didn't use professional grade airlift systems. If they used systems from either Kent or I, then they would have been getting accurate flow rates. If they tried to build their own system, using standard air diffusers and off the shelf components then, yes they would run into problems.

      That is like a hobbyist buying a motor, impeller, wet-end, and some wire, and making their own water pump. They would have no idea what kind of flow rates they are going to achieve, and they will have warranty issues for sure!

      People seem to think that designing an efficient airlift system is easy when in fact it takes lots of R&D to get a system that works well. Anyone can move water with air bubbles, but it takes a professional to move enough water to justify an airlift pond.

      Zac
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    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      That is the problem...They didn't use professional grade airlift systems. If they used systems from either Kent or I, then they would have been getting accurate flow rates. If they tried to build their own system, using standard air diffusers and off the shelf components then, yes they would run into problems.

      That is like a hobbyist buying a motor, impeller, wet-end, and some wire, and making their own water pump. They would have no idea what kind of flow rates they are going to achieve, and they will have warranty issues for sure!

      People seem to think that designing an efficient airlift system is easy when in fact it takes lots of R&D to get a system that works well. Anyone can move water with air bubbles, but it takes a professional to move enough water to justify an airlift pond.

      Zac
      Sorry dude...i totally disagree with this statement...airlifts are easy to make....and one of the easiest dyi projects around...if someone wants to have gravity fed filtration, settlement, moving beds and an airlift return to have a low energy use pond it is a worthwhile project....depends on how interested the person is on trying a few things till they get it right....i accidently made an airlift with a counter current foam fractionator i was working on and it was very efficient with just a 40 lpm air pump....moved a lot of water easily ....
      just like anything else, if you want to do it yourself you can if you have a few skills and are willing to try.....
      and of course there is a market for people that want to buy something already made and engineered and know exactly how it will work..... myself i use a combination of factory made filtration equipment and home made...never underestimate the pvc pipe crowd....
      DAN







    15. #15
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      I’m interested as well Zac. Please send me the info. Thanks.


      Quote Originally Posted by Zac Penn View Post
      As it has been stated already the bead filters will have to go if you want to use airlifts.

      I do have to disagree with Kent about the airlifts and sieves! I have designed a filter that incorporates airlifts, a sieve, and biological filtration all in one package. It is customizable to suit your needs, and takes up a very small amount of space. If you want to use airlifts in your pond, please stop purchasing equipment now, and talk with either Kent or I about construction and plumbing considerations to airlift driven ponds.

      Zac

    16. #16
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    17. #17
      Zac Penn's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Robdawg View Post
      I’m interested as well Zac. Please send me the info. Thanks.
      Holy Cow this is an old thread. I am no longer working on airlift systems because there is no real interest in this type of pond. I can try to help you out in any way I can, but the best way of designing with me is via e-mail Zac@DeepwaterKoi.com
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    18. #18
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      I still am running my 50,000 gallon pond on an airlift DIY system... BUT it has eight 4" bottom drains going to a 10'+ octagonal/rounded off vortex settlement chamber, with a 8 or 10 inch exit pipe through the middle of the chamber that comes to within inches of the waterline inside the settlement chamber... and then goes horizontally till it comes up vertically 7' into a raceway .... the airlift is a 1' diameter pvc pip placed in the 7' vertical section it has a few small holes drilled in it....
      The pond is 2 meters deep and I can see the bottom.
      The only maintenance is that I evacuate the bottom of the vortex octagon by pulling a 4 inch stand pipe once or twice a day when I feed the koi.
      the only other maintenance is when we have a hurricane I have to rake out all the leaves and branches.
      What would I do if I could....I would add a small rotating drum filter to scrub the water. The one Medo pump does all the water moving. PERIOD. what is that in electric consumption?
      I do have a flow through system from a well. It runs less than 1000gph(guess).
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    19. #19
      lukef's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by AndyW View Post
      Ben,

      We have a great alternative to airlift setup. Many airlift converts have contacted us with some issues after converting there ponds to airlift systems.
      Some of the issues relayed were lower flow rates then claimed, excessive sediment in bottom drains due to below minimum flow rates, utilities used
      with the amount of expensive air pumps required to achieved desired flow rate, complexity of setup, and of course lack of head pressure or lift.

      Our one of kind small axial flow pumps will move lots of water with modest head pressure and at the same time consume the lowest amount of utilities.
      We can help you design your pond to accomodate our pumps. They are very simple to setup and will run for years.

      More into:

      www.aquatechmfg.com

      Andy

      whatever happened to this site and the axial flow pumps?
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    20. #20
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      ... The one Medo pump does all the water moving. PERIOD. what is that in electric consumption?...
      What model of Medo pump is it. Most importantly though, what's the measured GPH of the resulting flow? PERIOD. It seems like every time someone posts that they're running airlifts, they leave out critical information needed to assess whether it works markedly better than a traditional pump.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-16-2018 at 02:31 PM.

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