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    Thread: New Koi Pond Construction -- Plumbing / Filter Design Questions

    1. #41
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      Quote Originally Posted by WAC View Post
      Hope this sorta helps!


      I thought this layout wouldn't work well if you get a clog and need to snake out one of the BD's? I'm no plumber, heck I'm lucky if I can use a plunger on the toilet.. just wondering I thought I read somewhere to have easy clean out access.





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    2. #42
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      Quote Originally Posted by boggen View Post
      ...for winterizing pond. 2 pumps and 2 circuits can make life easier, in just shutting down, skimmer, uv, waterfall and letting the bottom drain sieve, moving bed, GPR and TPRs do there thing. granted you can still do it with a single pump. but you will need to place a ball valve after the single pump to cause the pump to pump less water in winter so as not to over drive the sieve. that or pickup a cheaper pump that replaces the bigger pump in winter. just to keep water moving through bottom drains, sieve, moving bed tprs, gpr

      try to shut everything down in winter, means skinny dipping into some cold water to put inflatable plugs into bottom drains, into TPRs and GPR, and plugging up skimmer. then having to dump all water out of all pipe lines and filters.

      if ya keep bottom drain and tpr's / gpr going in winter. and just shut down waterfall, uv, skimmer. the skimmers are normally situated high enough (pipe work from them running to pump) were you can open a valve or clean out and just let water drain right out of the pipe work, without hooking up a wet vac and a garden hose to suck out the water in the pipe lines. and same goes for waterfall and UVs atleast most of the time.

      having a filter pit, just a small one, to house, sieve, moving bed, water pumps and air pumps and uv, can make life easier as well when it comes to winterizing your pond. it is much easier to toss a tarp over everything, and if need be for some folks toss a piece of plywood over and toss a tarp and some straw over top, to give it some insulation. to keep things from freezing. perhaps a small little heat lamp inside.

      trust me it is no fun trying to mess with electrical pipe heat wrap tape. a filter pit can allow ya to use a small heat lamp or smallest space heater you can find that has a thermostat on it set to lowest setting.
      Ryan,

      All good points, regarding pond design, in general.

      It may be worthy to bear in mind, however, that Phil lives in San Diego, and most of the issues regarding "winterizing a pond" will not be matters of concern to him.

      Paul

    3. #43
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      I don't have much to add....just wanted to chime in regarding Kent's / Paul's posts. I am in complete agreement. If you really are hurting for space, giving consideration to Kent's SSP is an excellent option. Also, Paul's assessment of Kent and his advice is spot on. I'm proud to say that I have Kent's first production model of the MP2C version of the LPBR sitting in my garage, and I feel that it will be the keystone of my biological filtration. Since you haven't bought your equipment yet, I would urge you to consider his above advice, ultimately affording you long term energy cost savings with a more efficient pump and a better overall filtration plan. As always, there are many approaches, and this one could be a great solution for your project.

      Other points... (1) I personally don't see the need for having a 2-speed pump in your installation. (2) I would not substitute the HydroSieve for the Cetus. If you are planning for sieve filtration, definitely stick with the Cetus. (3) Love your shotcrete plan. You can safely omit the geotextile underlayment and the liner. Ask about having him add Xypex admix to the shotcrete...should not add too much to the cost, and will provide crystalline waterproofing. Check it out. (4) I like your design. You can definitely have the waterfall come in at that end. It will not affect your bottom drain / wall return configuration. Looking forward to seeing your plumbing design.

    4. #44
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Ryan,

      All good points, regarding pond design, in general.

      It may be worthy to bear in mind, however, that Phil lives in San Diego, and most of the issues regarding "winterizing a pond" will not be matters of concern to him.

      Paul



      Quote Originally Posted by CYPHER View Post
      I don't have much to add....just wanted to chime in regarding Kent's / Paul's posts. I am in complete agreement. If you really are hurting for space, giving consideration to Kent's SSP is an excellent option. Also, Paul's assessment of Kent and his advice is spot on. I'm proud to say that I have Kent's first production model of the MP2C version of the LPBR sitting in my garage, and I feel that it will be the keystone of my biological filtration. Since you haven't bought your equipment yet, I would urge you to consider his above advice, ultimately affording you long term energy cost savings with a more efficient pump and a better overall filtration plan. As always, there are many approaches, and this one could be a great solution for your project.

      Other points... (1) I personally don't see the need for having a 2-speed pump in your installation. (2) I would not substitute the HydroSieve for the Cetus. If you are planning for sieve filtration, definitely stick with the Cetus. (3) Love your shotcrete plan. You can safely omit the geotextile underlayment and the liner. Ask about having him add Xypex admix to the shotcrete...should not add too much to the cost, and will provide crystalline waterproofing. Check it out. (4) I like your design. You can definitely have the waterfall come in at that end. It will not affect your bottom drain / wall return configuration. Looking forward to seeing your plumbing design.
      I will agree on the comments about the performance and quality of Kent's products, I have 2 SSP's running on a pond I service and they are awesome.

      Sticking with the car anology, using Cadillac, Buick, and Chevy, having a filter like Kent's LPBR or an Advatage Bead Filter would be the Cadillac. For me, the Ultima II filter is a Buick. Its lack of a blower for the backwash cycle really puts it at a disadvantage when it comes to cleaning time. The use of a 2-speed pump is a great way to over come this short fall, by backwashing on high it will do a much better job.

      I second the use of Xypex as well over Thoroseal, it can be batch mixed right at the concrete plant and will perform far better then any other cementatious coating. Mike has more experience using Xypex for pond applications and would be the one to ask.


      I love a good red.

    5. #45
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      Now we're getting somewhere! I think he's got it, boys!!

      On item 12:
      (12) Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and check valves between the skimmer and pump, between pump and Ultima II, and between bottom drains and ball valves.

      Ball valves after BD's, good.
      Check valves on BD lines? Not necessary unless going with an above ground prefilter, instead of the below ground sieve.

      In fact, this is another selling point for a below waterline settlement chamber or sieve. Having a check valve on a BD line introduces a stickle point for algae clumps, rotted leaves, sticks, and gravel thrown in by the nephew. A bottom drain line should be as smooth and free flowing as possible, to prevent settling or clogging of debris.

      A two foot drop for the waterfall may create quite a splash if there's not enough water flowing over it to maintain the integrity of the sheet as it falls verticle.

      The pump? I still say don't buy it yet, not until the plumbing is 97% finished and the components are actually bought and installed.

      1. We hit a rock and now the pond is 4 feet shorter.
      2. The wife said it's lillies or me, so the pond can only be 3 feet deep.
      3. We had to add 70 feet of pipe to meet code.
      4. My contractor didn't know the skimmer I bought required a wider collar opening so the pond is now 1.5 feet deeper and the waterfall fell so I'm not going to have it so now the tpr is a fountain and.........


      steve

    6. #46
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      Quote Originally Posted by PLBHalpern View Post
      Gentlemen,

      The good news: I just started a new job. The bad news: I still am doing my old job. So, despite my 15 hour work days, I come home around 11pm exhausted, but too excited to go to bed knowing that this community has probably out-done itself discussing my pond. In a way, it’s humbling for a beginner to get so much help from so many experts. In other words, thanks once again for all you're doing. My design just continues to change and I’m ok w/ it (except the cost, but that’s another story). So, let’s try again until I get this darn thing right:

      (1) Dimensions: Approx. 16' x 7' x 5' (approx: 4000 gallons).Looks to be slightly bigger in width. Overall, good shape.

      (2) Contour: 4.5' straight drop to 12" radius edge to a slight slope (2") to drains. Make sure the excavation accounts for the thickness of the concrete. BTW, plan shows a 12" concrete thickness. I bit of an overkill. I suggest reducing to 6" thickness with Xypex Admix added to the shotcrete. The batch plant can do this as they mix the concrete into the truck. Then, add a double coat of Xypex Concentrate to the interior of the shotcrete to seal it from the inside. This stuff really works great.

      (3) Material: Shotcrete 6" thick w/ #4 rebar on 12" center, spaced 3" inside shotcrete with Thoroseal coat. Use the Xypex and forget the Thoroseal. We tried this stuff and did not have good success with it.

      (4) Waterfall: 6' (length) x 3 (width) x 2.5' (height) – narrow enough to produce a gentle sound w/ a 2500 gph flow (500 gph going to each wall return).Again, reduce the width of the weir in the waterfall to 24-30" and don't skimp on the volume to the tprs and gpr. Based on the shape of the pond, I would recommend changing the single gpr to 2 to allow them to properly split the flow around both drains. Keep all this at 2" with at least 1000gph. If you have to reduce the rate of flow on the tprs/gprs, then restrict them to 1 1/2", though I don't recommend doing this.

      (5) Skimmer: Savio Compact (1) w/ green Matala pads.

      (6) Bottom Drains: Rhino II w/ 3" PVC (2).You can save over $200 just by changing to the KoiToilet aerated 3" BDS here.

      (7) Aeration: Airlines installed (but no air pump or diffusers at present).The diffusers are attached to the dome of the bottom drains. They come that way.

      (8) Pre-filter: Cetus Sieve Pre-filter w/ Kent’s upgrade.

      (9) Pump: Artesian 2-speed A2-1 pump w/ Trap (also plumbing designed to enable addition of second pump in future.You won't be happy with this pump on YOUR pond. Besides, when you do backwash, there will be too much flow for the Cetus/skimmer to keep up with. Still recommend the ESS6400, but only if you tie the skimmer/Cetus output together before the pump.

      (10) Filter: Aqua-Ultraviolet Ultima II - 6000-This would probably be your best choice of pressurized filter based on the fact that you have no other bio on the system. (BTW, this is not the best solution for bio either). NOTE: STeve, the reason the Ultima filters don't have a blower is because they don't need one! You really only need a blower to overcome the poor design of using poly beads as they can become packed. But, I digress, for fines filtration, maybe they work better for some. After using an Ultima for 8 seasons, I won't buy the others based on what I've seen occur at customer's ponds who have them.

      (11) UV: Aqua Ultraviolet 80 WattYes, or as Kent suggested, W. Lim's UV-10. Overall about the same space requirement needed. Only thing is the AquaUV can be mounted horizontally or vertically. Remember, when mounting a UV horizontally, you need to add an additional 3' of space for changing bulbs/cleaning quartz sleeves.

      (12) Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and check valves between the skimmer and pump, between pump and Ultima II, and between bottom drains and ball valves. Now you're cookin'!!!

      (13) Wall Returns: Three wall returns (2 2" TPRs approx. 14" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and one 3" GPR between drains) See my above suggestion concerning the # and size of pipe for these

      (14) Refilling: Refill line with a faucet valve to Cetus Pre-filter.Yes


      Questions:

      (1) Other than saving some dough are there any other reasons to go (or not go) with the aerated Koi Toilet I rather than the Rhino II?The koitoilet comes in a 3" model. I don't believe the Rhino does. Also, as mentioned, you don't need two 9" diffusers. The 3" has a 7" diffuser. I would purchase both with diffusers, and if you want, for now, just valve the two from the air pump and close one off. See how it looks,performs and then, if necessary, you can always open the second one if needed, especially during the summer for extra DO.

      (2) Anybody else prefer the High Output Matala Stainless Steel 75 watt UV to the Aqua Ultraviolet 80 watt UV?Both have their pros/cons and also consider the W. Lim UV10 as well.

      (3) As it looks like I’m going w/ the shotcrete can I tell my contractor to eliminate the geotextile underlay and 20 mil PVC linerYES, PLEASE DO! Just one more expense that's really unnecessary IMHO.

      (4) Anyone else feel strongly about using the Evolution ESS6400 rather than the Artesian 2-speed A2-1. See comments above

      (5) Anyone like the idea of going w/ the HydroSeive PF Compact Pond Sieve in place of the Cetus Pre-filter. See: http://www.russellwatergardens.com/F...FQYLbAodJl_rAg.NO WAY, JAY!!!

      (6) Given that I currently am using a bead filter does anyone else feel strongly that I should use a waterfall filter (for fines filtration)? I had one in the original design, but then dumped it after adding the Cetus. It’s an additional $575 I wouldn’t mind saving.I stongly recommend additional filtration on this system. You really don't have a true Biological unit anywhere on the system. Please, DO NOT rely on ANY pressurized filter to do a good job of biofiltration, PLLEEEEZZZZEEE.

      As everyone can see, I’m trying to be Solomon-esque by getting plumbing for a second pump, but not actually adding it. I’ll try and come up w/ a plumbing design by the weekend so that it can be torn apart (constructively, of course).

      The last issue which is still rearing its ugly head is the question of wall returns and bottom drains? I like my design, but I feel constrained to add that I will have the waterfall come in at the short end. I’ve attached a rough sketch to give you all an idea. If anyone else feels strongly that I’m making a mistake with the current setup, please weigh in!No mistake here. Especially if you reduce the size/width of the falls weir, it shouldn't interfere with your flow currents, but again, the tpr/gpr flow needs more than 500pgh to work properly.


      As always, heartfelt thanks to Scrmnkg (Norm), Koizilla (John), Paultergeist (Paul), Lomaponder (Bill), Pond, James_Pond (Steve), Cypher, WAC, Birdman (Steve), ColumbiaWaterGardens (Carl), Boggen (Ryan) and Koiman1950 (Mike).

      Phil
      Can't wait to see your modification to the "second pump" plumbing. BTW, here's a few shots of a recently completely 8000gal pond we did. The tpr/gpr returns are gravity fed at approx. 2000gph each and the flow is great. The waterfall on this one runs about 6000gph, but notice it does not interfere with the viewability of the fish while it's running.

      Mike
      Attached Images Attached Images    
      Last edited by koiman1950; 12-16-2010 at 04:21 PM.
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    7. #47
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      Plumbing Update

      I couldn't wait until I got home late tonight to check the board. As usual, more great food for thought that I'll need to digest before posting. However, the real reason I'm posting now is that I just received a slightly out-of-date plumbing design (from my much maligned contractor -- who I think really has more expertise that you all fear, although not as much as this collective community). I wanted everyone to have a chance to review it and comment on it during the daylight hours even though I won't be able to get back on the board till much later.

      I really feel that I'm getting close and the only real mistake I've made is thinking that I could be up to speed in only a month or two -- especially without the advise of a broad range of folks who have been there and done that more times that I can imagine.

      Who knows, maybe I can give cycling or some other type of advice in return.

      Phil

      PS -- The design is out-of-date because I'm trying not to talk to him too much until I have a better idea of the final design I think is appropriate.
      Attached Images Attached Images

    8. #48
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      I hope this is out of date!?

      First, the BD lines SHOULD NOT be tied together until they get just in front of the Cetus. Then they should have a check valve>ball valve on each line of THREE INCH size manifolded into a single 4" line into the Cetus. The lines from the the Cetus and skimmer need to be 2", not 1 1/2". The pump needs to be changed to a proper single speed unit and the 2" ball valve between the pump and filter is unnecessary as long as the check valve is used. Obviously, you already are aware the UV circuit can be changed based on the unit used. The pipe wouldn't necessarily need a by-pass circuit.

      YOU might think he has more expertise, but from here, based on the use of the 1 1/2" lines, I still say NO!!!

      Mike
      Mike

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      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

    9. #49
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      beyond issue, can or can not the pump self prime itself with being placed above ground, and size of pump that it is.... i don't know.

      but regardless of that issue. the check valve is in wrong spot, and if you went with that diagram, you would need 2 check valves, one between skimmer and wye, and one between seive and the wye, the wye being right before the inlet of the pump.

      ======================
      next diagram is showing bottom drains wyed / teed below ground level. *shakes head NO!* that is a big no no. nor ball valves on each bottom drain.

      =====================
      next not showing returns (tprs / gpr)

      ======================
      only primary filter is bead filter *not good at all*

      =======================
      4" piping on drains, your pond needs 2 3" drains not 2 4" drains.

      ===================
      plumbing diagram looks like a pool style diagram. not a pond diagram. and would lead me to believe contractor is a pool installer and not a pond installer. i should correct that pool installer / watergarden installer. not a koi pond installer. most likely pools are his bread and butter, while ponds are kinda of a side thing. and has not done enough or do enough all the time. to be up to par in knowledge.

      generally when contractors and folks with plumbing background knowledge / general trade construction knowledge. once they go through the math a few times. and apply it a few times. they are normally good to go. and i see it time and time again here on the forums. there is a difference between pools and ponds, algae, and fish waste. and not being able to basically shock the water. to kill things, but having to deal with live animals in the water all the time. trips up many pool installers. different trades of plumbers, some deal with chemicals all the time, while others house hold plumbing, other just in pools. each area has there own guide lines per say, of what is and is not acceptable. and what works and does not work. and then working down into the micro management of getting the most out of things in each trade.
      Last edited by boggen; 12-16-2010 at 05:13 PM.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    10. #50
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      Quote Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
      Ryan,

      All good points, regarding pond design, in general.

      It may be worthy to bear in mind, however, that Phil lives in San Diego, and most of the issues regarding "winterizing a pond" will not be matters of concern to him.

      Paul
      my bad. wasn't paying attention to location *doh* regardless, still will push for filter pit. ponds are built to look all nice, while filter pits are built to function and easy of cleaning of filters and taking care of water. plus centeral location for everything dealing with the pond. and outside of the filter pit say walls and like can be easier to hide or blend into the landscape. vs trying to hide a filter behind some bush. and dealing with spray painting all exposed pipe work so it doesn't get damaged from the sun. easier way to keep kiddo's 4 legged to our human 2 legger kiddos. from getting into things they should not be getting into as well.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

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    11. #51
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      Here's a quick synopsis (haphazardly numbered 1-10) from what I saw on the diagram ... Sorry if it's hard to read on the picture but I wasn't thinking when I started it.
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    12. #52
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      Smile Just a bit more help needed. I think, I hope . . . .

      I think I'm making progress? Although I confess it's a difficult process as I am constantly balancing cost and pond use. As can be seen, I obviously haven't incorporated all suggestions - as some conflict w/ others (e.g., one bottom drain versus two), but I'm starting to limit the number of items that are really up for debate. Here's the latest list with some changes (most notably, the pump and the return of the biofilter from my original design) followed by a list of issues that I'm still weighing in the back of my mind.

      So, the more who weigh in the merrier. Thanks in advance.

      (1) Dimensions: Approx. 16' x 7' x 5' (approx: 4000 gallons).

      (2) Contour: 4.5' straight drop to 12" radius edge to a slight slope (2") to drains.

      (3) Waterfall: 6' (length) x 30" (weir width) x 2.5' (height) – narrow enough to produce a gentle sound w/ a 2500 gph flow (500 gph going to each wall return) w/ Biofilter.

      (4) Material: Shotcrete 6" thick w/ #4 rebar, spaced 3" inside shotcrete w/ Xypex Admix. Double coat of Xypex concentrate to interior of shotcrete

      (5) Skimmer: Savio Compact (1) w/ bacti twist and no pads.

      (6) Bottom Drains: Koi Toilet I w/ 3" PVC (2).

      (7) Aeration: Airlines installed (but no air pump at present).

      (8) Pre-filter: Cetus Sieve Pre-filter w/ Kent’s upgrade and discharge tank and/or drain area (note: my wife gave me a bit more room to allow underground filter)

      (9) Pump: Evolution ESS6400 (with skimmer/Cetus output tied together before the pump) and plumbing designed to enable addition of second pump in future.

      (10) Filter: Aqua-Ultraviolet Ultima II - 6000

      (11) UV: Aqua Ultraviolet 80 Watt

      (12) Bio-Filter: In waterfall (open to options)

      (13) Wall Returns: Three wall returns (2 2" TPRs approx. 14" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and one 3" GPR between drains)

      (14) Refilling: Refill line with a faucet valve to Cetus Pre-filter.

      (15) Plumbing: Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and check valves between pump and Ultima II, and between bottom drains and ball valves.

      WAC’s modifications to the plumbing diagram. Word!

      Issues:

      (1) Last chance for anyone to put in a plug for the Rhino II over the Koi Toilet I.

      (2) Last chance for anyone to weigh in on Green Matala pads versus Bacti Twist suggested by Kent.

      (3) It has been suggested that I might prefer a Sequence 6800PRM19 to an Evolution ESS6400 (with skimmer/Cetus output tied together before the pump). Any takers?

      (4) On the issue of a pump, anyone still think I'm making a mistake going w/ a 1-speed rather than the Artesian 2-speed A2-1.

      (5) I've gotten good feedback on the Aqua Ultraviolet 80 watt UV, but have also had strong shout outs for the High Output Matala Stainless Steel 75 watt UV or W lims 58 watt High output UVS-10. Anyone else want to try and convince me to go w/ one of the options?

      (5) It has been suggested that I install another 2" GPR to allow them to split the flow around both drains. I’ve attached the design I thought I’d use w/ just 1 GPR (it's an old one that I sketched out several weeks ago when their was a shelf and a different depth). Do folks think this won’t work?

      (6) Taking away the space issue, who would prefer installing Kent’s above ground Static Suction Pre-filters (SSP) rather than the Cetus and waterfall filter?

      (7) I'm pretty well set on the two 3" bottom drain design, but I'm interested w/ the possibility that I'd be better off (with a pond this size) using only one Aerated bottom drain rather than two.

      (8) Anyone else want to inform me of the potential benefits of abandoning the Savio and going w/ a no-nitch skimmer design.

      (9) Does anyone think I should modify WAC’s plumbing diagram (assuming I am going w/ the given equipment, except for swapping out the Artesian pump with the Evolution model).

      Once again, let me thank you in advance for taking the time to tell. As you can see from my changes I read everyone of your suggestions, research them, try to find additional posts on the subject and incorporate many. I remain in your debt.

      And, remember, I need (and appreciate more than I can say) your assistance.

      Phil
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      Last edited by PLBHalpern; 12-17-2010 at 10:20 AM.

    13. #53
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      Quote Originally Posted by PLBHalpern View Post
      I think I'm making progress? Although I confess it's a difficult process as I am constantly balancing cost and pond use. As can be seen, I obviously haven't incorporated all suggestions - as some conflict w/ others (e.g., one bottom drain versus two), but I'm starting to limit the number of items that are really up for debate. Here's the latest list with some changes (most notably, the pump and the return of the biofilter from my original design) followed by a list of issues that I'm still weighing in the back of my mind.

      So, the more who weigh in the merrier. Thanks in advance.

      (1) Dimensions: Approx. 16' x 7' x 5' (approx: 4000 gallons).

      (2) Contour: 4.5' straight drop to 12" radius edge to a slight slope (2") to drains.

      (3) Waterfall: 6' (length) x 30" (weir width) x 2.5' (height) – narrow enough to produce a gentle sound w/ a 2500 gph flow (500 gph going to each wall return) w/ Biofilter.

      (4) Material: Shotcrete 6" thick w/ #4 rebar, spaced 3" inside shotcrete w/ Xypex Admix. Double coat of Xypex concentrate to interior of shotcrete

      (5) Skimmer: Savio Compact (1) w/ bacti twist and no pads.

      (6) Bottom Drains: Koi Toilet I w/ 3" PVC (2).

      (7) Aeration: Airlines installed (but no air pump at present).

      (8) Pre-filter: Cetus Sieve Pre-filter w/ Kent’s upgrade and discharge tank and/or drain area (note: my wife gave me a bit more room to allow underground filter)

      (9) Pump: Evolution ESS6400 (with skimmer/Cetus output tied together before the pump) and plumbing designed to enable addition of second pump in future.

      (10) Filter: Aqua-Ultraviolet Ultima II - 6000

      (11) UV: Aqua Ultraviolet 80 Watt

      (12) Bio-Filter: In waterfall (open to options)

      (13) Wall Returns: Three wall returns (2 2" TPRs approx. 14" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and one 3" GPR between drains)

      (14) Refilling: Refill line with a faucet valve to Cetus Pre-filter.

      (15) Plumbing: Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and check valves between pump and Ultima II, and between bottom drains and ball valves.

      WAC’s modifications to the plumbing diagram. Word!

      Issues:

      (1) Last chance for anyone to put in a plug for the Rhino II over the Koi Toilet I. [COLOR="blue"]KT I is a better value[/COLOR

      (2) Last chance for anyone to weigh in on Green Matala pads versus Bacti Twist suggested by Kent. Good choice either way

      (3) Anyone else feel I’m making a mistake using the Evolution ESS6400 (with skimmer/Cetus output tied together before the pump) rather than the Artesian 2-speed A2-1. Yes

      (4) Anyone feel strongly that I should ditch the Aqua Ultraviolet 80 watt UV and going with the High Output Matala Stainless Steel 75 watt UV or W lims 58 watt High output UVS-10? I have select UVS models on sale click on the banner in my siggy.
      (5) It has been suggested that I install another 2" GPR to allow them to split the flow around both drains. I’ve attached the design I thought I’d use w/ just 1 GPR (it's an old one that I sketched out several weeks ago when the depth was different). Do folks think this won’t work? Only thing I would change is the TPR on the left side of the sketch, move it to the opposite side, but keep the rotation the same.
      (6) Taking away the space issue, who would prefer installing Kent’s above ground Static Suction Pre-filters (SSP) rather than the Cetus and waterfall filter? Tough call, but I do like the fact that the Cetus removes waste from the water column
      (7) Anyone else want to weigh in on using only one Aerated bottom drain rather than two. After seeing your drawing......you need 2

      (8) Anyone else want to weigh in on dumping the Savio and going w/ a no-nitch skimmer design. My preference for your situation...Savio

      (9) Does anyone think I should modify WAC’s plumbing diagram (assuming I am going w/ the given equipment, except for swapping out the Artesian pump with the Evolution model.

      Once again, let me thank you in advance for taking the time to tell. As you can see from my changes I read everyone of your suggestions, research them, try to find additional posts on the subject and incorporate many. I remain in your debt.

      Phil
      Watch the foam in this pond, it's basically your same design, and will give you an idea of what to expect.




      I love a good red.

    14. #54
      Pond James_Pond's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PLBHalpern View Post

      (12) Bio-Filter: In waterfall (open to options)

      (13) Wall Returns: Three wall returns (2 2" TPRs approx. 14" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and one 3" GPR between drains)

      (15) Plumbing: Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and check valves between pump and Ultima II, and between bottom drains and ball valves.
      12) Bio filter in waterfall: To me this is a no brainer. The waterfall has to have some height and structure to it, so it only makes sense to fill it with any kind of media. Bio balls, strapping, bacti-twist, you name it. Just make sure the waterfall has a reservoir behind it, (55 gallon barrel?).

      13) Wall returns: With the pond volumn of 4,000 gallons, there is really no need for a 3 inch GPR. At 500 gph the water would just ooze out of that big pipe. Even at 1000gph the velocity would be minimal. In a perfectly symetrical pond, the flow from a GPR would split on the opposite wall and flow in opposing circles. Not all the water would make the circle paths however. Some would come against the opposite wall and deflect up too. But with the aid of tpr's to get things spinning, they (gpr and tprs) would work as a system.

      Symmetry is the key. As drawn there would be some problems with directional flow. I've edited the drawing to show a potential problem. The red cloud is water boiling up the wall across from the gpr. The brown cloud is a dead area.

      I've got a pond of 8x12 with 4 tpr's, one in each corner. The tprs aren't very close to the bottom, only about 1/2 way down the 5 foot deep sides. The bottom is very bowled. In fact, the flat bottom is only about 6x9. Since the tpr's are a little high, I have elbows on each. Over the last 3 years I've pointed them in all different directions, using 45 and 90 degree elbows. Watching the surface of the water, it's easy to see where a current will come against a wall and boil up. Also I've pointed the flows at each other to cause turbulent currents. What I'm saying is, I may not be a fluid dynamicist, but I've watched alot of water! I'd go with the symmetrical opposing circular flows using 2 2" tpr's pointing the same direction and a 2incher on the opposite wall. Each tpr has it's own pipe from a manifold near the pump. Each tpr has it's own ball valve to adjust flow. With skimmers, wind, waterfalls etc. you'll want the ability to adjust the flow from each return for optimum cleaning currents.

      15) Plumbing: WAC done good. It still lists check valves on the BD lines. I'd not install them there. "Gravity is what gravity does" (Forrest Gump). Water will never flow backward from the sieve back into the pond.


      (2) Last chance for anyone to weigh in on Green Matala pads versus Bacti Twist suggested by Kent.

      (5) It has been suggested that I install another 2" GPR to allow them to split the flow around both drains. I’ve attached the design I thought I’d use w/ just 1 GPR (it's an old one that I sketched out several weeks ago when their was a shelf and a different depth). Do folks think this won’t work?

      (6) Taking away the space issue, who would prefer installing Kent’s above ground Static Suction Pre-filters (SSP) rather than the Cetus and waterfall filter?

      (7) I'm pretty well set on the two 3" bottom drain design, but I'm interested w/ the possibility that I'd be better off (with a pond this size) using only one Aerated bottom drain rather than two.

      (9) Does anyone think I should modify WAC’s plumbing diagram (assuming I am going w/ the given equipment, except for swapping out the Artesian pump with the Evolution model).

      Phil
      (2) Yes. Bacti-twist is cool.
      (5) See drawing. (2) 2" tpr and (1) 2" gpr
      (6) As I see it, space is the ONLY issue. Kent's super filter is the best thing after gravity fed settlement chambers or best yet, a sieve.
      (7) At 14 feet, the pond floor is just beyond the capability of a single bottom drain. I had more room to dig a bigger hole, but kept my pond at 12 feet for this purpose. With the dual lobe (kidney) design, you'll be far better off with two drains. Both should have provisions for aeration, although using a valve to run one or t'other makes economical sense.
      (9) Not all the ball valves are shown.

      steve
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    15. #55
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      WAC's diagram. i have been pushing for bigger filter pit, and will continue to do so.

      i want to see a sump pit chamber in the filter pit, and i would like to see the pump located below pond water level ""folks normally call it installed via flooded"" that way you can remove 2 check valves and only go with one check valve. this reducing head loss. and not having to deal with priming issues, which can be a pain. and can cause nightmarish situations, if ya don't know how to deal with it.

      ============

      because skimmer is direction suction to pump, i want to see a skimmer savio or there are cheaper nock offs, check around wwkc / koiphen vendor websites. that have both a leaf basket and filteration media in them. not bashing savio they are good skimmers. just saying hey,

      i would stay away from no-niche skimmers. i honestly look at them as retro fit skimmers for ponds that didn't have a skimmer in first place. or use in quartine tanks or small over wintering tanks. to note it, i think they look ugly personally. though some folks like looks of them. on other hand, i honestly don't like reaching over pond water to get the basket out of them.

      =============

      returns 16 inches off bottom of pond. a couple inches either way not going to make a big deal. you want returns either level, or a couple degrees slightly pointing down.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...stem-curve-etc..
      see posts 24 through 30 for placement of the Left TPR. and to get a better understanding for TPR's and GPRs.
      p.s. this is a very old outdated thread of mine, and GPR's are not labeled correctly. but it should help get a better idea of things.

      ====================
      as far as auto fill valve, and like. some folks like doing a small trickle of water 24/7 so they obtain a very slow water change all the time, vs doing large sudden 10 to 15% water changes weekly.

      doing a slower trickle of water, can help reduce effects of clorine or *uth oh been awhile* cholamizines? chlorfile? **i best just stop here before i get ya really confused and myself confused to boot* and can help ya avoid needing to use different chemicals. due to lower dosage amounts at a time.

      with ya do the slow trickle of water thing, you really do need an overflow pipe some place in the system.

      but regardless of above, an overflow pipe should be had. some folks place it in skimmer to keep it hidden and out of sight, some folks wye off of one of the bottom drain lines there pro's and con's to both.

      ===========================
      only thing i could care about bottom drains is making sure it is 3" pipe work. and i would make them both aerated bottom drains, and that you place a dedicated air pump to run both diffusers on both drains. and this air pump should be on its own dedicated gfci and breaker. meaning no other pond equipment. this is a saftey factor for your fish. so if something happens. you still have some water movement in the pond and keeping oxygen in there.

      =========================
      ceties sieve, i would go with. not bashing kents SSP. as far as i know it is only one on market that has reduced head loss, due to bigger size fittings and intenrals. not bashing others, we have other vendors that could DIY something as well. but i think kent only one at time offering built units ready for re-sell out of the box. to be honest i look at kents SSP more of a retro fit situation unit. and has a small corner market. i can't blamn him for displaying it. for when those few folks show up that need that retro fit, if he didn't do shamless plug, no one may no anything about it. and those few folks would miss out on a good thing. again pushing for a bigger filter pit. it would be worth it in my opinion.

      =================
      i need to correct 2" slope to drains, i have stated it a few times, and now i am seeing more of it all of a sudden. it doesn't have to be 2" slope. bottom of pond could be virtually level. and still work ok. just having a slight slope in bottom of pond. just makes sure when something drops into pond like a round rock, that it rolls towards the drains. or if you ever have to drain pond completely you litterly can drain all the water down to the drain without having puddles of water. the slope does also help insure that muck also rolls towards the drain beyond a round rock. yes having a steeper slop can help get more stuff to the drains. but it is kinda of a compromise. having a slight slop allows folks to walk on the pond bottom once algae covers it and still maintain a half way good footing, at same time allows if wanted plant stands to be placed in pond. and not worry about them falling over due to to much of a slope towards the drains. to be honest i just say 2" slope. due to it simplifies folks trying to figure out a slope measurements and doing math. and little less slope or little more slope not going to do any major damage, it may make a slight difference one way or another. but nothing major. granted always exceptions but *shrugs*

      ====================
      foam fractionator or protien skimmer basicly do same thing.

      if ya noticed all the foam on "norm's" video. a FF (Foam fractionator) would help remove that foam on the water. folks normally don't need to run FF's all the time, and you more see folks running them during spawing season, and in spring / summer.

      if it were me, i would look at some DIY FF's here on the forum. now, to get yourself prepared some in were you might be able to add one to your filteration system some time down in the future. FF's are not mandatory, by no means, and you can do water changes to help reduce things to keep foam from showing up. but regardless, i tend to see folks slowly add them after a couple years to help deal with foam and water clarity.
      Last edited by boggen; 12-17-2010 at 01:58 PM.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    16. #56
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      Okay, here's some additional suggestions

      First, if the Cetus is a gravity fed unit and set 20mm above pond level, then, yes, you would NOT need the 3" check valves on the BD lines, just the ball valves for adusting flow from each drain.

      I forgot all about this, but it is a REALLY IMPORTANT ITEM - an overflow pipe, as boggen mentioned, but it should NOT be plumbed off a bottom drain line. It should be it's own dedicated 1 1/2-2" pipe. If a Savio is used, it should be plumbed inside of it (cleaner install).

      I TOTALLY agree with Norm, move that left tpr to the opposite side for proper circulation.

      Now, here's something to keep in mind - your tprs really need to flow a MINIMUM of 1000gph EACH for good circulation. The reason for this is that with 2" pipe, you will not have enough velocity at less than 1000gph to circulate the water completely around each drain. I would also change that GPR to a 2" line (better yet, 2 x 2" lines) as the shape of the pond dictates this need. If the wall opposite the GPR was straighter, then yes, one 2" line would do it. As far as distance from bottom, we've done 16" above the floor before, and find that 12", especially with your return flow rates, will be much more efficient at sweeping the bottom. Yes, definitely, they need to be level or no more than 5 degrees down bubble.

      Consider this - If you go with an Evolution ESS6400, and it is plumbed in a flooded position (below water level), it will help reduce your total dynamic head loss, and remember, this pump produces 6400gph at FIVE FEET of head. I would think that would be roughly what you'd have if all the plumbing is done correctly. So, based on that number, two 3" bottom drains to Cetus (4500gph), plus Savio skimmer at 2000gph = 6500gph available intake flow. 4 tprs x 1000gph = 4000gph PLUS waterfall at 2500gph = 6500gph, puts you right in the ballpark of what you'll need. AND, you'll be turning the pond over at a rate of roughly every 45 minutes. I really like this as small/medium size ponds need a faster turnover than larger ones, say 10,000gal plus. The 8000gal pond in my post that we recently finished turns the water over every 30 minutes! Sounds like a bit of overkill, but the customer wanted a Yosemite-type gushing flow that he could see from the house. Well, he got it, and he's extremely happy with the look and sound.

      As far as media in the skimmer, I truly prefer the green Matala mats. A skimmer is designed to trap leaves and larger debris. The only thing it wouldn't trap would be fines that would somehow get through the mat. This is where your Ultima filter comes in. As I said before, I've been using an Ultima for the past 8 years and have NEVER truly had a problem with the media clogging/channeling and I backwash it with a Lim Dragon 1/3hp pump!! Never needed a blower!! They are necessary on a true "bead" filter (insert band aid for poor design IMHO), as the media WILL/CAN get stuck together. Does, one do a better job at fines filtration? Well, maybe, but I'm still not convinced. And, based on all the true "bead" filters we've replaced on customer's ponds over the last 8 years, I just don't believe the trade off is worth it.

      I am still convinced that adding a 110 or 150gal drum bio filter behind the waterfall is a NECESSITY! Usually, we use a drum made by Kormex, which should be available relatively close by you and doesn't cost much (around $150). You could use bacti-twist media or a Matala round in it,. or both in combination for your bio. A 3" pipe output to the head of the falls is all that would be necessary. Kormex does make a drum with a weir lip on it but I don't recommend it as I don't like how they installed it and have heard folks complain of leaking after a while.

      One more thing here - I notice that your contractor's diagram, although a bit old now, shows the output from the Ultima going to the UV with a bypass and then ONLY a single line to the waterfall in 2". Suggestion - eliminate all that bypass stuff, split the exit line from the Ultima, one line goes to the UV>bio filter>waterfall return. The other goes to the manifold for the tpr/gpr lines. Based on that, you'd be flowing approx 2500gph through the UV which, on a unit of that size (no matter which brand you choose) you would be closer to the UV being a sterilizer as opposed to a simple clarifier. So, you're getting a bigger bang for your buck. At that flow rate, you should have no problem maintaining good water clarity.

      Mike

      Mike
      Last edited by koiman1950; 12-17-2010 at 04:59 PM.
      Mike

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    17. #57
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      Smile If at first you don’t succeed . . . . Part VI

      (1) Dimensions: Approx. 16' x 7' x 5' (approx: 4000 gallons).

      (2) Contour: 4.5' straight drop to 12" radius edge to a slight slope (2") to drains.

      (3) Waterfall: 6' (length) x 30" (weir width) x 2.5' (height) – narrow enough to produce
      a gentle sound w/ a 2500 gph flow (500 gph going to each wall return) w/ Biofilter.

      (4) Material: Shotcrete 6" thick w/ #4 rebar, spaced 3" inside shotcrete w/ Xypex Admix. Double coat of Xypex concentrate to interior of shotcrete

      (5) Skimmer: Savio Compact (1) w/ bacti twist and no pads.
      Protein skimmer / Foam Fractionator (open to suggestion)

      (6) Bottom Drains: Koi Toilet I w/ 3" PVC (2).

      (7) Aeration: Airlines installed (air pump on separate gfci breaker to be installed later)

      (8) Pre-filter: Cetus Sieve Pre-filter w/ Kent’s upgrade and discharge tank and/or drain area

      (9) Pump: Evolution ESS6400 (below water level in sump pump chamber) and plumbing designed to enable addition of second pump in future.

      (10) Filter: Aqua-Ultraviolet Ultima II - 6000

      (11) UV: Aqua Ultraviolet 80 Watt

      (12) Bio-Filter: Bio Material in waterfall w/ reservoir barrel behind waterfall (open to options)

      (13) Wall Returns: Three wall returns (2 1.5" TPRs approx. 16" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and 1 1.5" GPR between drains) - left TPR moved to opposite side of diagram. Are 3 returns really necessary?

      (14) Refilling: Refill line with a faucet valve to Cetus Pre-filter.

      (15) Plumbing: Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and a check valve between pump and Ultima II.

      WAC’s plumbing diagram! W/ following mods:

      1.5" overflow pipe (plumbed inside Savio skimmer) / remove two check valves (pump below water level) and not worry about priming issues / skimmer/Cetus output tied together before the pump
      Last edited by PLBHalpern; 12-19-2010 at 01:45 AM. Reason: Slight Mods from Kent and James

    18. #58
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      Given you only have somewhere around 6000 gph to work with I'm not sure why you are going with 2" returns. I see this a lot. 1 1/2" would be plenty and if you use the 2" you will just have to restrict them way down to get anythin over your waterfall. I rarely if any use 2" retrurns. You don't have the volume to run 4 of them and will probably have to restrict the 1 1/2" down at that. Your curved pond shape lends toward less TPRs and not more.

    19. #59
      Pond James_Pond's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by PLBHalpern View Post

      (9) Pump: Evolution ESS6400 (below water level in sump pump chamber) and plumbing designed to enable addition of second pump in future.
      Yes, put the pump below water line close to the sieve. This also simplifies the plumbing, no need for check valves between the sieve and pump nor skimmer and pump. The water will only flow one way; down to the pump. "Gravity is as gravity does."


      (13) Wall Returns: Four wall returns (2 2" TPRs approx. 16" off bottom of pond in opposite corners and two 2" GPR between drains) - left TPR moved to opposite side of diagram. Are 4 returns really necessary?
      No, for a 4,000 gallon pond with two bottom drains (with counter rotational currents) 4 returns aren't necessary. My 3,400 gallon pond has 4, one in each corner, to keep the entire bottom moving or "swept" if you will. I'm returning about 500 - 700gph through each. That's a total of up to 2,800gph through the tpr's which leaves about 2,000 gph for my waterfall.

      I went with 1.5 inch pipes all the way from the manifold in the pit to each tpr. This is fine, and at those relatively low velocities there isn't too much friction loss. Where I did make a mistake was using the wrong elbow fittings. I used those right angle dudes found at Home Depot. Using several of those did drive up my dynamic head. Better would have been to order online the long sweeps, or best, would have been to run 2" all the way to the pond and then neck down to 1.5" for proper velocity as the water enters the pond. I was on a budget and kept cost down by going with 1.5 all the way.

      For you pond, if I was building it, I'd go with 1.5" pipes for the tpr's from a 2" manifold near the pump. Each tpr must have it's own valve. The gpr I'd run 2" all the way from the manifold, with it's own valve after the manifold like the tpr's. Use long sweep elbows exclusively.



      (15) Plumbing: Valves: Between all components: including two 3" ball valves after each bottom drain line and before Cetus and A check valve between pump and Ultima II only.
      steve

    20. #60
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
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      Since we're tossing in suggestions this is the way it would be laid out with an SSP!
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