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Thread: new simple 5 gallon bucket filter

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    new simple 5 gallon bucket filter

    I have a hatchery tank that I am using for some small koi, and I made a simple K1 filter for it from a 5 gallon bucket. I have been using it for about a year and it works really well, and is very easy to clean & do water changes. I have pictures and explanations on these pages:

    About the filter
    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/po...lter/index.htm

    Cleaning the filter and changing the water
    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/pond/gbackf/index.htm

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    very cool, may have to modify this for my q tank!

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    You could probably do this with a 55 gallon barrel and have it work just as good.
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    That is the most complex 5 gallon filter set-up ive ever seen with all the timers and stuff lol. What a great setup you have made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    I have a hatchery tank that I am using for some small koi, and I made a simple K1 filter for it from a 5 gallon bucket. I have been using it for about a year and it works really well, and is very easy to clean & do water changes. I have pictures and explanations on these pages:

    About the filter
    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/po...lter/index.htm

    Cleaning the filter and changing the water
    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/pond/gbackf/index.htm

    Name:  bucket.jpg
Views: 7289
Size:  72.9 KB
    Like to know how much would a 5 gal bucket filter perform? Anyone has idea? Normally a barrel of 55gal would take care of 1K gal pond. 5 gal would take care of 100 gal pond (QT tank, I meant)??

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    Hey Shorty, there's still time to join

    http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...quot&highlight=


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    There are a lot of factors that affect how much waste a biofilter can convert - one of the bigger factors is how much surface area of media you have. I have some numbers that you can use for calculating a guess at what a filter design will handle on this page:

    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/pond/design/index.htm

    For my 5 gallon bucket filter on my QT tank, I have about 2.17 gallons of K1 media, and theoretically if everything is working perfectly, it should handle 4.35 ounces of koi food waste per day, and at 1% feed rate, that would be 435 ounces of fish. The average 12" koi is about 16 ounces.

    But remember, there are a LOT more factors involved than just the amount of media you have.

    Shorty
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    Hey Shorty,

    Looks like you've been doing your research, and kudos on the koi rescue. Here's something to think about though, your filter with 2.17gallons of K1 equates to about 3.5cu.ft. or 896sq.ft. of surface area, image 1/2 cu.ft. of MP2C giving you 49,000 sq. ft.

    Norm


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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    There are a lot of factors that affect how much waste a biofilter can convert - one of the bigger factors is how much surface area of media you have. I have some numbers that you can use for calculating a guess at what a filter design will handle on this page:

    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/pond/design/index.htm

    For my 5 gallon bucket filter on my QT tank, I have about 2.17 gallons of K1 media, and theoretically if everything is working perfectly, it should handle 4.35 ounces of koi food waste per day, and at 1% feed rate, that would be 435 ounces of fish. The average 12" koi is about 16 ounces.

    But remember, there are a LOT more factors involved than just the amount of media you have.

    Shorty
    I read the link you provided...very neat. I have 6 of 55 gal barrels and one of the 6 barrels is DIY boil K1 (2 cubic feet of K1). I am thinking about converting to another DIY boil barrel with K1. From your data, it's impressive that 55 gal barrel can handle 10 of 24" fish :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by caolewis View Post
    I read the link you provided...very neat. I have 6 of 55 gal barrels and one of the 6 barrels is DIY boil K1 (2 cubic feet of K1). I am thinking about converting to another DIY boil barrel with K1. From your data, it's impressive that 55 gal barrel can handle 10 of 24" fish :-)
    Kaldness K1 is an amazing media. It was originally developed for the sewage industry, and it is heavily used in the commercial aquaculture world which not only stocks fish at a much higher density than we do, but they also have many scientific trials published for peer review. Makes sense because they have a lot of money and people's jobs on the line, and they need solid technology to support those.

    Norm Walsh -- I think it is great you are doing a filter design contest in the other thread. I haven't seen any experiments that use your media, something that would be great for the koi community is to host scientific testing of your media side by side with other established media types such as K1. You would need to open the test up for peer review and be willing to run the testing multiple times if the experiment has possibilities of being contaminated. It is a lot of work, but would be extremely beneficial for the community. Our hobby has tons of hype, and a very small amount of actual controlled testing.

    Here is an idea for a test setup:
    3 identical stock tanks, such as the 6' diameter type (about 300 gallons)

    Each tank has:
    only one pump to run it
    only 1 filter configuration
    no UV sterilizer or auxiliary type devices
    flow configured so the current in the tanks run the same speed
    identical set of koi - same starting size, age, gender
    same feed rate of the same food
    same water changing schedule
    same water treatments
    heaters to keep the water temperature the same
    located so they all get the same sun exposure -- or use lights on timers

    ideally, the koi would be selected from the same spawn, and be of the same growth rate. When I breed koi, I notice there are some fast growers, some slow, and many average growth rate.

    You would start the experiment by carefully weighing each koi and measuring their length. You can weight them with a scale, or measure their displacement by putting them in tub of water, marking the water line, then removing the koi and mark again. Then weigh the water that fits between those two marks.

    During the experiment, you would need to take water quality samples on a regular basis and chart the results. Also would chart their growth.

    *** I know I am missing factors, more thought needs to go into this experiment, it should have more discussion before starting. Also experiment cycles would need to be run multiple times to differentiate between startup and mature filters, plus compensate for difference in genetic makeup of the test subject koi -- possibly by having the koi swap tanks, or use new randomly selected koi and see if they have the same growth rate as previous subjects.

    It would be a lot of work over a long period (like years), but this would be very valuable to the koi community as a whole, and if you publish the data on your website, would be a source of exposure & advertising, get you more traffic and help your business.

    Shorty
    Koi Rescue
    Life is an all-you-can-eat buffet, and I am a hungry sumo wrestler.

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    Cermedia's "Marine Pure" product line is well established in the fresh/salt water aquarium markets. MP2C is the same product only reshaped for the ponding industry.

    Here's some testing you may find interesting.



    I love a good red.
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    "Free yourself from the rigid conduct of tradition and open yourself to the new forms of probability."
    Hans Bender


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Walsh View Post
    Cermedia's "Marine Pure" product line is well established in the fresh/salt water aquarium markets. MP2C is the same product only reshaped for the ponding industry.

    Here's some testing you may find interesting.

    That is some very typical HYPE that is common amongst the pet fish hobby. The only hard data it referenced, was their water changes were reduced by 50%. But it doesn't say 50% of what? Were they doing 100% water change per week, and now they are only doing 50% water changes per week? Or what?

    no data on optimum flow rate through the media

    no media configuration details -- it did suggest a shower type arrangement, but did not specify optimum depth of media. If you stack the media on top of each other, at a certain thickness it will not have optimum flow and the bottom media will not perform.

    no cleaning and maintenance schedule

    Practically no useful information at all, except there were some nice looking fish and the guy was very pleasant as he talked.

    I went to your website and looked at the media and saw where you sell it, but did not see any data on how to use it. If there is already data from real scientific testing, then maybe you could link to it from your sales page, or host your own pages on how to use the media properly.

    Sorry to sound so gruff -- I see bad situations over and over, and over again. People do buy the right stuff, and many different types of media and filter configurations do work when operated properly -- but the problem is people never get educated on how to use it properly. Companies that sell equipment often just slap a label on the front that says "this filter will handle 3000 gallons" and that is it.

    Shorty
    Koi Rescue
    Life is an all-you-can-eat buffet, and I am a hungry sumo wrestler.

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    I like you Shorty, well said . I used K1 and Japanese Matte for my filters because I have seen these materials being used by KOI masters . Others, I am not convinced how they come up with number in their spec. When I started out with my pond, I bought these junk PF 1000, 3000 filters and they now in my junk/$hit collection. Its top PF-3000 Can't even handle 200 Gal QT, but was claimmed to handle 4000 gal pond....garbage data.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    There are a lot of factors that affect how much waste a biofilter can convert - one of the bigger factors is how much surface area of media you have. I have some numbers that you can use for calculating a guess at what a filter design will handle on this page:

    http://www.shortypen.com/projects/pond/design/index.htm

    For my 5 gallon bucket filter on my QT tank, I have about 2.17 gallons of K1 media, and theoretically if everything is working perfectly, it should handle 4.35 ounces of koi food waste per day, and at 1% feed rate, that would be 435 ounces of fish. The average 12" koi is about 16 ounces.

    But remember, there are a LOT more factors involved than just the amount of media you have.

    Shorty
    Shorty boss, with that 5gal bucket of 2.17 gal of K1, how big is the QT (how many gals?) and what the most fish/size you had loaded at the time? Amomnia and PH are stable? I am between Matte or K1 for my QT and your provided info would help much :-)

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    Hello Shorty,

    Since I get the numbers from the Niagara Aquarium in my email box each week. I thought I would share them with you. This was in the email I got from Dan today .....


    SHARK Tank 17,000 Gallons, feeding 5 pounds of fish every other day.
    Date________pH_______Ammonia_______Nitrate________ Nitrite______Water Changes Comments
    2/9/2011____8.12________0.00__________8.3___________0. 010_______not this week


    OCTOPUS 1500 Gallons
    Date__________pH______Ammonia______Nitrate______Ni trite_______Water Changes Comments
    2/9/2011______8.09_______0.00__________2.3________0.00 5_______not this week

    The Shark tank is 17,000 gallons, the filtration on the tank is a very large protein skimmer, some filter pads, and 13 cubic feet of the Cermedia Ceramic. The flow rate over the media is 1300 gallons per cubic foot of media.

    We don't recommend a media pack depth, it is far more a function of the containers the customer may already have. The media they are using is an 8X8X4 block randomly stacked.

    The Octopus tank is 1500 gallons. I don't have specifics on the filters because it was setup before my involvedment, and I have just never asked. The water temp in the octopus tank is 49 F.

    Note that Cermedia works above and below the water line. Recommended flow rates are 1000-1500 gph per cubic foot. Although our customers vary on these numbers greatly and enjoy the experimenting with the possibilities.

    Best Regards,
    Matt Sklar

    P.S. no hype, just the facts...
    ...........................................please let me know what else you would like to know.



    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    That is some very typical HYPE that is common amongst the pet fish hobby. The only hard data it referenced, was their water changes were reduced by 50%. But it doesn't say 50% of what? Were they doing 100% water change per week, and now they are only doing 50% water changes per week? Or what?

    no data on optimum flow rate through the media

    no media configuration details -- it did suggest a shower type arrangement, but did not specify optimum depth of media. If you stack the media on top of each other, at a certain thickness it will not have optimum flow and the bottom media will not perform.

    no cleaning and maintenance schedule

    Practically no useful information at all, except there were some nice looking fish and the guy was very pleasant as he talked.

    I went to your website and looked at the media and saw where you sell it, but did not see any data on how to use it. If there is already data from real scientific testing, then maybe you could link to it from your sales page, or host your own pages on how to use the media properly.

    Sorry to sound so gruff -- I see bad situations over and over, and over again. People do buy the right stuff, and many different types of media and filter configurations do work when operated properly -- but the problem is people never get educated on how to use it properly. Companies that sell equipment often just slap a label on the front that says "this filter will handle 3000 gallons" and that is it.

    Shorty
    Last edited by mtsklar; 02-09-2011 at 02:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    Kaldness K1 is an amazing media. It was originally developed for the sewage industry, and it is heavily used in the commercial aquaculture world which not only stocks fish at a much higher density than we do, but they also have many scientific trials published for peer review. Makes sense because they have a lot of money and people's jobs on the line, and they need solid technology to support those.

    Norm Walsh -- I think it is great you are doing a filter design contest in the other thread. I haven't seen any experiments that use your media, something that would be great for the koi community is to host scientific testing of your media side by side with other established media types such as K1. You would need to open the test up for peer review and be willing to run the testing multiple times if the experiment has possibilities of being contaminated. It is a lot of work, but would be extremely beneficial for the community. Our hobby has tons of hype, and a very small amount of actual controlled testing.

    Here is an idea for a test setup:
    3 identical stock tanks, such as the 6' diameter type (about 300 gallons)

    Each tank has:
    only one pump to run it
    only 1 filter configuration
    no UV sterilizer or auxiliary type devices
    flow configured so the current in the tanks run the same speed
    identical set of koi - same starting size, age, gender
    same feed rate of the same food
    same water changing schedule
    same water treatments
    heaters to keep the water temperature the same
    located so they all get the same sun exposure -- or use lights on timers

    ideally, the koi would be selected from the same spawn, and be of the same growth rate. When I breed koi, I notice there are some fast growers, some slow, and many average growth rate.

    You would start the experiment by carefully weighing each koi and measuring their length. You can weight them with a scale, or measure their displacement by putting them in tub of water, marking the water line, then removing the koi and mark again. Then weigh the water that fits between those two marks.

    During the experiment, you would need to take water quality samples on a regular basis and chart the results. Also would chart their growth.

    *** I know I am missing factors, more thought needs to go into this experiment, it should have more discussion before starting. Also experiment cycles would need to be run multiple times to differentiate between startup and mature filters, plus compensate for difference in genetic makeup of the test subject koi -- possibly by having the koi swap tanks, or use new randomly selected koi and see if they have the same growth rate as previous subjects.

    It would be a lot of work over a long period (like years), but this would be very valuable to the koi community as a whole, and if you publish the data on your website, would be a source of exposure & advertising, get you more traffic and help your business.

    Shorty
    Have you seen any of Zac Penn's thread and the test on shower media and flow through he has done. There is alot of good info about not only the Cermedia, but filtration and other medias in general
    Austin

    Koi-keeping is a hobby that generates obsession.

    BWK 5 gallon bucket challenge champion!



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShortyPen View Post
    That is some very typical HYPE that is common amongst the pet fish hobby. The only hard data it referenced, was their water changes were reduced by 50%. But it doesn't say 50% of what? Were they doing 100% water change per week, and now they are only doing 50% water changes per week? Or what?

    no data on optimum flow rate through the media

    no media configuration details -- it did suggest a shower type arrangement, but did not specify optimum depth of media. If you stack the media on top of each other, at a certain thickness it will not have optimum flow and the bottom media will not perform.

    no cleaning and maintenance schedule

    Practically no useful information at all, except there were some nice looking fish and the guy was very pleasant as he talked.

    I went to your website and looked at the media and saw where you sell it, but did not see any data on how to use it. If there is already data from real scientific testing, then maybe you could link to it from your sales page, or host your own pages on how to use the media properly.

    Sorry to sound so gruff -- I see bad situations over and over, and over again. People do buy the right stuff, and many different types of media and filter configurations do work when operated properly -- but the problem is people never get educated on how to use it properly. Companies that sell equipment often just slap a label on the front that says "this filter will handle 3000 gallons" and that is it.

    Shorty
    If you want to educate yourself on MP2C, the information is at your fingertips, feel free to contact me via phone or email. Even a simple search right here on KP will provide 32 hits for "MP2C" and 24 hits for "Cermedia"


    I love a good red.
    Norm

    "Strive not to be a success, but rather to be of value." (A.E.)
    "Free yourself from the rigid conduct of tradition and open yourself to the new forms of probability."
    Hans Bender


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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRedKoi View Post
    Have you seen any of Zac Penn's thread and the test on shower media and flow through he has done. There is alot of good info about not only the Cermedia, but filtration and other medias in general
    Can't find it. Can you pls provide a link for it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norm Walsh View Post
    If you want to educate yourself on MP2C, the information is at your fingertips, feel free to contact me via phone or email. Even a simple search right here on KP will provide 32 hits for "MP2C" and 24 hits for "Cermedia"
    Just because there are 32 hits or 24 hits for a keyword, doesn't mean there is any actual useful information in those threads. And by using those words in this thread, we are increasing the hit number, without actually contributing anything.

    How about, since you sell the media on your website, add in some sub pages that show the hard details and data regarding the media.

    mtsklar -- thats for posting your info, that is some basic starting info. Maybe you can compile more detailed information on the systems and their long term running performance, and work with Norm to publish that data? I am not talking about a one day stat like you posted, but a real, long term overview of the system(s) performance along with the mechanical system details, feed type and rate, water change schedule, filter maintenance details, etc etc.

    One of the things that tends to hide a filter's true performance is the water change schedule. Most of the glorified bakki shower systems to heavy water changes, which really should classify them as flow through systems with a great aerator (as opposed to a bioreactor treating the water)

    Shorty
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    Life is an all-you-can-eat buffet, and I am a hungry sumo wrestler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by caolewis View Post
    Shorty boss, with that 5gal bucket of 2.17 gal of K1, how big is the QT (how many gals?) and what the most fish/size you had loaded at the time? Amomnia and PH are stable? I am between Matte or K1 for my QT and your provided info would help much :-)
    The tank is about 300 gallons.
    with the filter fully mature,
    feeding rate of 1% of the fish body weight per day
    standard 40% protein koi type pellet food,
    pump running a 600 gph actual flow through rate,
    30% water changes twice a week
    twice a week stir and drain the filter

    ...most of the time I don't break 300 ounces of koi, but a few times I have had pretty close to the max in there (which would be 435 ounces) at one time, but only kept the heavy load in there for 2 months at the most. Because I rescue koi, I get various amounts of koi in for various time lengths, and that is one of the tanks I use for holding. I have seen many 500 gallon ponds that had 2 or 3 of 24" koi in them plus goldfish, and those size koi are like 130 ounces each.

    That is REALLY PACKED, and while it is possible to do and keep your koi surviving, it is not pleasing to look at (they look like sardines) and if you run into problems, things can go bad quickly. Long term for a tank that size, I'd keep it much less dense, like around 50 to 100 ounces of koi -- but to each their own, if you can setup a system and maintain it to keep your koi surviving, then good for you.

    While I am blabbling on..... people have suggested that theoretically you could keep a koi in a tube, and as long as the water quality was good, they could survive and "thrive", which I think means grow at an acceptable rate. I have actually seen it in real life, one guy I rescued koi from had a hot tub motor hooked up to a 150 gallon home depot pond shell. The motor ran at about 3500 gph, had a waterfall with 1 foot drop at one end, then the water dropped out the other end of the pond into a bucket and circulated back to the top. The flow was so great, that I don't think there was a single spot in that little pond that did not have a current. No filter other than about 1 gallon of rocks in the catch bucket. He did 100% water changes once a week with straight tap water - no dechlorinator. He described the water changes that he would turn the hose on and let it run in the pond, which would overflow into his yard. He ran it for a long time, till his yard was fully flooded. When he first started the pond, he fed koi pellets, but ran out and switched to table scraps. He was a smoker, wasn't allowed to smoke inside so he sat on the porch, ate meals and snacked, and fed the koi right from his plate about 5 times a day. He had 4 koi in there, started off as 4" fingerlings and within 1 year they all grew to 14"+. One day his pump died, within 12 hours 2 of the koi died from asphixiation and he had me pickup the 2 survivors. The two I picked up were in excellent health, strong swimmers and great bodies.

    I personally like K1 -- it may be expensive, but it is very easy to work with, very easy to clean and very effecient. I have found matte to be a pain to clean, but the good thing is it acts like a particle filter, much more than K1, so there is a bonus to it. Pin type bioballs seem to break off pins because I like to stir my media when cleaning, so the pins end up floating in the tank. There are many other medias (including pot scrubbers), they all have pros and cons, and certain ways to make them work to their best.


    -- WARNING --
    Whatever media you use for a QT tank, if you take the media and dry it, make sure that when you put it back into service, to clean it really well and cycle it for atleast 24 hours in clean water, then dump the water before putting it into service. Dried media has some kind of toxic crap that builds up on it, and that is how I clean it to get rid of the toxic properties.

    Shorty
    Koi Rescue
    Life is an all-you-can-eat buffet, and I am a hungry sumo wrestler.

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