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    Thread: Xypex Questions... Concentrate/Admix/Mega mix

    1. #1
      icu2's Avatar
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      Xypex Questions... Concentrate/Admix/Mega mix

      There's been a lot of interest in this product... probably because it seems to be a very
      economical way to seal a concrete (block, poured, or shotcrete) shell!
      But I've found it hard to collect bits of info from different threads... so I thought I'd start
      one where anyone could ask anything.
      With the potential of several questions being asked at the same time, be sure to add the "quote" option to your post... then, maybe it won't get too confusing who you're responding to.

      And hopefully some of the great contractors here that have actually used these products, can help
      us out with some of the questions at the beginning... It seems the more a product is
      used, the more people with helpful, practical experience surfaces... but until then...

      So I guess I'll start.
      My plan was to use concrete block on a poured floor with Admix 1000 added, then dry
      stack block on it with horizontal/vertical rebar, then fill the cells of the block with more
      concrete w/Admix added.
      Since a "dry stack" scenario would leave a lot of gaps in the block, I'm now wondering if
      this might not be such a great idea. I was planning to use something like surface bonding
      cement (Qwikwall) and add the Xypex Admix to it... then spread it on the dry stacked block,
      then apply the Concentrate over the top to further waterproof... since I've read that it would
      penetrate 12" in a few months.

      Questions:
      Should I abandon the dry stack method and get mortar in between all the gaps?

      If I stick with the dry stack method or not, should I apply the Concentrate onto the
      block directly... then apply Qwikwall, mortar, or Megamix, over the top of that to make a
      smooth, continuous surface? Or vice versa? Or can I just add the Admix to the Qwikwall
      or mortar and apply that?

      How many "coats" do I need of each?

      Hopefully some info will be able to condensed into one spot for this product that seems
      like it has a ton of potential.
      And if you have a different question, feel free to ask! I don't want to this to be a "my
      question" only thread... post away!
      Thanks!
      --Steve



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    2. #2
      sworley's Avatar
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      Steve, this is a part of the email interchange I had with a Xypex rep. which I think might address some of your questions:
      Adding the C-1000 to the surface bonding cement may
      > not
      > > accomplish what you
      > > had hoped. To explain briefly the crystalline
      > > admixture fills the capillary
      > > tracts, voids and micro cracks within the cement
      > based
      > > structure. The
      > > acrylic fortifier will improve the adhesion, tensile
      > and
      > > flexural properties
      > > of the bonding cement, as the acrylic coalesces
      > (process of
      > > water
      > > evaporation to create the film formation) the acrylic
      > will
      > > impede the
      > > diffusion of the crystalline.
      > > So, I would not add the C-1000 to the surface bonding
      > > cement (usually this
      > > is a very thin parge coat) there won't be sufficient
      > > surface area or
      > > crystalline in the surface cement to accomplish the
      > > waterproofing you are
      > > looking for. My best suggestion is to treat the
      > block
      > > on the interior as
      > > you described in your initial emails. That you are
      > > considering a surface
      > > bonding cement would indicate that you may be applying
      > a
      > > stone or brick
      > > veneer to the block? If you are looking to create a
      > > uniform surface finish
      > > for the pond and do not want to see the block, this
      > can be
      > > accomplished by
      > > applying the Xypex Concentrate and then in lieu of
      > the
      > > Xypex Modified apply
      > > Xypex Megamix I which can be troweled smooth and can
      > be put
      > > into immersion
      > > in 7 days.
      > >
      > > Hope this helps, I may have confused you more and
      > apologize
      > > if that is the
      > > case but bottom line the C-1000 would not benefit you
      > in
      > > the application as
      > > you have described.
      > >
      > > Regards,
      > >
      > >
      > > Paul Derby
      > >
      > > Paul Derby, SSPC-PCS
      > > Xypex S.E. Regional Manager
      > > 629 Braidwood Drive
      > > Acworth, Georgia 30101
      > > Tel: 770-485-0317
      > > Fax: 770-485-0979
      > > Cell: 678-476-2611
      > > email: derby@xypex.com
      > > website: www.xypex.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: Sarah Worley [mailto:sworli1@yahoo.com]
      > >
      > > Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2010 8:53 AM
      > > To: Paul Derby
      > > Subject: RE: Enquiry from Xypex Website
      > >
      > > I have another question, Paul. I have access to
      > some
      > > Xypex C-1000 additive
      > > and I'm planning to use it in my Quickwall (surface
      > bonding
      > > cement)
      > > application to my block waterfall wall. I
      > > am also planning to use
      > > Quickrete's acrylic fortifier which will not only help
      > to
      > > make the surface
      > > more water resistant but will also help in the
      > adherence to
      > > the wall. Will
      > > the C-1000 additive make the wall waterproof so that
      > the
      > > water will not seep
      > > through from the inside of the waterfall wells?
      > > Thanks,

      YOu might want to email him and ask him if the concentrate can be applied over other stuff - it was my understanding, reading about it on the site, that it has to be applied first to seep into the concrete structure. I was told by the quickwall people, though, that quickwall will not adhere to any surface that has been coated with anything.


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    3. #3
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      Steve, is this going to be a "filter pit" or some type of "filter tank"?


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    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      So I guess I'll start.
      My plan was to use concrete block on a poured floor with Admix 1000 added, then dry
      stack block on it with horizontal/vertical rebar, then fill the cells of the block with more
      concrete w/Admix added.
      Since a "dry stack" scenario would leave a lot of gaps in the block, I'm now wondering if
      this might not be such a great idea. I was planning to use something like surface bonding
      cement (Qwikwall) and add the Xypex Admix to it... then spread it on the dry stacked block,
      then apply the Concentrate over the top to further waterproof... since I've read that it would
      penetrate 12" in a few months.

      Questions:
      Should I abandon the dry stack method and get mortar in between all the gaps?

      If I stick with the dry stack method or not, should I apply the Concentrate onto the
      block directly... then apply Qwikwall, mortar, or Megamix, over the top of that to make a
      smooth, continuous surface? Or vice versa? Or can I just add the Admix to the Qwikwall
      or mortar and apply that?

      How many "coats" do I need of each?

      Hopefully some info will be able to condensed into one spot for this product that seems
      like it has a ton of potential.
      And if you have a different question, feel free to ask! I don't want to this to be a "my
      question" only thread... post away!
      Thanks!
      Steve,
      Instead of using the SBC on the dry stacked walls, just use a standard stucco coat on the inside of the pond, and use xypex in the stucco. This will leave you with a smooth surface, and fill in any cracks/gaps in the drystacked block. I would fill the blocks with concrete first, and let it set for a few days, then apply the stucco to the inside walls. My fear is that if the stucco is used before filling the block with concrete, that it may cause cracks in the stucco. Xypex is supposed to seal those small cracks as the crystals develop, but why test that???

      Exclaimer...I have never used the Xypex products

      Zac
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    5. #5
      lukef's Avatar
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      First:
      I do not like "dry-stacking" of block. There are obvious reasons but the one that people do not quite understand till they start drystacking block is that the block becomes more and more out of align as the stack gets higher. I feared trying to lay concrete block as the "people" around here were getting up to $2.50/block, so i thought it must be a skill worth the price. It is NOT. With a good trowel, a level, a line, and a good slow work process I quickly could lay block to such a degree that the Stucco crew that came and stuccoed my interior walls(with Xypex added) had to take away two 94(?)lbs bags of stucco mix because they over estimated how rough my walls were. They were honest when they told me that they thought that my block walls were much smoother than the ones they stuccoed for proffesional block-layers.
      Mortaring the blocks allows the DIY'er to level out irregularities as you find them; drystacking emphasises the iregularities as the blocks are not plastic and as they go up irregularities get compounded.

      as to what to do with the xypex.
      I bought a five gallon can of the "RED" mix..I remember the can was red...it might have been "100" but all i can be sure of is it was a red can.
      I added it at a rate that the Xypex Rep said to plus another 20-25% for good measure to the stucco mix. and put this over the block wall that was solid-poured with four rows of lentle(sp) block with #5 rebar running in each of the lentle runs, and #5 rebar in every other cell vertically.
      I did have some leaks, but they were not due to xypex, but to my lack of attention to details and an understanding of my limitations...but the Xypex walls have held bac water for about 5 years now
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    6. #6
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      Now if you look close in the photo above you can see both "dry-stacked" AND laid block. To the right of the photo is the Vortex island in the middle of Lake Luke. THAT was dry stacked and the cells were poured full. It did not need to be waterproof as the inside of it is the vortex for the lake. it was stuccoed so the koi could not damage themselves on it.
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    7. #7
      sworley's Avatar
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      I wrote to Mr. Paul Derby at Xypex again and asked him about applying the concentrate over the quickwall. This is what he said:
      "If the surface bonding cement was not mixed with an acrylic bonding agent
      than coating with Xypex would help in waterproofing the structure. Xypex
      waterproofs through crystallization. This process is a reaction with the
      by-products of Portland Cement hydration and our proprietary chemicals to
      form a non-soluble crystalline growth that seals pores, capillary tracts and
      micro cracks within the structure provided there are no barriers (paint,
      acrylic bonding agents etc) the crystalline will continue to grow in the
      bonding cement and into the substrate as well."
      So, I'm going to put Quickwall without the fortifier onto my waterfall wall and then coat it with the Xypex concentrate since the crystalization will go through the SBC and into the wall.


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    8. #8
      icu2's Avatar
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      Wow! Awesome info everyone!

      Thanks Sarah! Your rep was sure a lot more helpful than mine!
      Your second post sounds just about what I had envisioned... except mine will be on the inside. Please keep us posted on how
      that goes!

      Hi Norm,
      It's for the main pond...

      Thanks Zac and Luke!
      I think you're both right... and the more block a lay, the more I realize how much I need the mortar to level things out.
      My poured floor didn't come out as level as I thought.
      And thanks for the pics Luke... I've read your build thread about a zillion times... great info!

      The more I think about it, the sbc is probably overkill... with the blocks filled with concrete, I think the stucco is probably fine.
      The sbc worked great on my filter pit, but that was just dry stacked block and no cells were filled. But that thing feels like you
      could hit it with a truck and it wouldn't budge.

      Is "stucco" just mortar? I think my bags of mortar say they're "for" stucco.

      Thanks everyone!
      --Steve



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    9. #9
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      Will do, Steve - if stucco is just mortar, then I might just use "stucco" on my wall and apply the concentrate to it, since it does have the portland in it and the concentrate should crystalize through it, too - all the better, financially!

      I just read about stucco - it's sand lime and cement with water. It's not waterproof or water repellant unless it has acrylic or some other additive in it. Acrylic will prevent the crystalization necessary for xypex to waterproof whatever it's applied to, soooo - it's back to the SBC which is at least water repellant.
      Last edited by sworley; 08-05-2010 at 08:23 PM. Reason: additional info


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    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by sworley View Post
      Will do, Steve - if stucco is just mortar, then I might just use "stucco" on my wall and apply the concentrate to it, since it does have the portland in it and the concentrate should crystalize through it, too - all the better, financially!

      I just read about stucco - it's sand lime and cement with water. It's not waterproof or water repellant unless it has acrylic or some other additive in it. Acrylic will prevent the crystalization necessary for xypex to waterproof whatever it's applied to, soooo - it's back to the SBC which is at least water repellant.
      You just said that stucco was sand, lime and cement. There is no additive nor acrylic so Xypex will work just fine. SBC is pointless unless you are not filling the blocks with concrete. Stucco will smooth out the wall just fine, allow the xypex to penetrate, and will cost over three times less!!!!!!!!!!

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      Quote Originally Posted by ZP Construction LLC View Post
      You just said that stucco was sand, lime and cement. There is no additive nor acrylic so Xypex will work just fine. SBC is pointless unless you are not filling the blocks with concrete. Stucco will smooth out the wall just fine, allow the xypex to penetrate, and will cost over three times less!!!!!!!!!!

      Zac
      Thanks, Zac - I just read that many "modern" stucco mixes have additives such as acrylic to make them adhere better. I'll look for one that doesn't. It certainly pays to read the ingredient labels, which I do with almost everything from food to concrete!


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      Sarah,
      I have been reading up on the posts here on Xypex. My opinion is it is there is not much product and a lot of marketing behind it. What you listed as stucco (sand, lime, cement and water) is almost what Xypex is. FYI mortar is cement and lime. Xypex is (Sand, lime, lime, cement water). There are two types of lime to make mortar waterproof. The science of which lime is which fails me.

      For waterproof mortar we use the Ironclad in both type N and type S which I am told is waterproof by the use of multiple types of lime. I pay $7 per bag for a 70lb bag. Mind you this is straight mortar without sand.

      Not to be nit picking on terms. The last thing you want to do is put stucco on. Stucco by definition is self-healing in that it absorbs water on purpose. You do not want this. You want waterproof parge. Which is only Stucco with the lime to make it waterproof.

      Off the top of my head I think it is calcium lime that makes it waterproof. Or something like that.

      Pools, cement canals, septic systems etc... have all been waterproof long before Xyplex came along.

    13. #13
      sworley's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ThisIsMe View Post
      Sarah,
      I have been reading up on the posts here on Xypex. My opinion is it is there is not much product and a lot of marketing behind it. What you listed as stucco (sand, lime, cement and water) is almost what Xypex is. FYI mortar is cement and lime. Xypex is (Sand, lime, lime, cement water). There are two types of lime to make mortar waterproof. The science of which lime is which fails me.


      For waterproof mortar we use the Ironclad in both type N and type S which I am told is waterproof by the use of multiple types of lime. I pay $7 per bag for a 70lb bag. Mind you this is straight mortar without sand.

      Not to be nit picking on terms. The last thing you want to do is put stucco on. Stucco by definition is self-healing in that it absorbs water on purpose. You do not want this. You want waterproof parge. Which is only Stucco with the lime to make it waterproof.

      Off the top of my head I think it is calcium lime that makes it waterproof. Or something like that.

      Pools, cement canals, septic systems etc... have all been waterproof long before Xyplex came along.
      I realize that, however I don't know where to get what you refer to as "Ironclad"? Would Lowes have it? Where does it say what type it is on the bag? I haven't seen that. Thanks! (Steve - I don't mean to hijack your thread - I think this info can help both of us) So, since the SBC is "water repellant but not waterproof according to the Quickwall rep I spoke to, I'd still need a coating of something over it to waterproof the wall, wouldn't I? Or are you saying that I could use one of the types of mortar you mentioned as a coating instead of Quickwall and it would be waterproof? Or, would I need to use the Xypex concentrate over it?


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    14. #14
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      Thisisme
      i really love a guy that speaks their mind and has an informed opinion.
      but i disagree with you
      if you go to the xypex homepage you can see different organizations that believe in Xypex
      like The Shedd Aquarium
      http://www.xypex.com/projects/details.php?projectID=281
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    15. #15
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      A little lesson on permeability, water proofing. All materials are permeable. Some more so than others. For examining welds on a tunnel, we used diesel fuel sprayed on one side and 24 hours later inspected the other side. If the oil went through the permeability was extreme. Oil tanks, above ground fuel oil type, will be covered in oil from one end to the other, even if there have not been any spills, because oil can go through the steel. Granted it is very slow. A few years ago, there was a commercial for one of the floride toothpastes that showed the dipping of a piece of blackboard chalk in a dye solution to show how the floride would go into the tooth and harden the enamel. Well most materials fall between steel and chalk, though concrete is closer to the chalk.

      If you take a bag of concrete mix and make it with the recommended 1 gallon of water, it will make X amount of concrete. If you make it with 2 gallons of water, it will actually end up making X plus about 10%. The extra gallon of water would translate as about 0.13 cubic feet, but due to the bleeding of water, settlement of solids, you end up with about 10% more. When that extra water evaporates, you have this very large sponge. Water will go through much more readily than it would through the tighter lower water concrete.

      For bridge concrete, due to the cancer of rusting steel in bridge decks caused by the addition of salt to our roadways to keep cars between the ditches, the water to cement ratio is specified to be fairly low, reducing the permeability of the concrete. The thickness of concrete is also a factor, since the movement is related to the relative differences within any small unit of distance. So for concrete piers that are in constant contact with salt water of the ocean or near ocean waterways, an additional inch of concrete is used to increase the time to corrosion.

      The time for water or water borne chemicals to get through a given amount of concrete is then controlled by both thickness and permeability. The use of Xypex, per their advertixements, increases the watertightness, or reduces the permeability. A thin coating of any material is going to have much less effect than a thicker coating, as the amount of Xypex available in the thin coating is going to be insufficient to grow the deep crystals within the concrete. A thicker coating provides both an increase in total thickness of structure, and a larger reservoir of Xypex (more ounces per square foot) to make crystals in a block wall behind. It does take water to activate the Xypex and as water goes into the concrete the crystals form deeper into the concrete, or so they say. So water will be going through the concrete or treated surface to make the crystals, which says it will continue to go through the wall. It just goes through slower.

      My feelings are it may help in poured concrete, Though high strength concrete probably doesn't need it. Gunnite and shotcrete may be a little more porous so it will help there. On a block wall, I have serious concerns that it won't do much. Block is too porous and the only thing protecting it would be a thin layer of material.
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    16. #16
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      Thanks for the info,Richard - I appreciate your experience and knowledge on this subject. I'm planning to "experiment" with using Quickwall, first, and then the Xypex Concentrate, which should help in making the wall "less permeable" to water and, as you said, the water is needed for crystalization, so as the water seeps through the back side of my wall from the waterfall wells, the crystals should more readily form rendering it more water tight - right?


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    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by sworley View Post
      I ... (Steve - I don't mean to hijack your thread - I think this info can help both of us)
      No worries! This is exactly why I started it and made it a general title... so anyone could ask anything!
      And you're right... this all is getting good!



      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      ...On a block wall, I have serious concerns that it won't do much. Block is too porous and the only thing protecting it would be a thin layer of material.
      Great info Richard!

      Would your concerns in the above quote change at all if the block cells were filled?
      --Steve



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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      No worries! This is exactly why I started it and made it a general title... so anyone could ask anything!
      And you're right... this all is getting good!

      Great info Richard!

      Would your concerns in the above quote change at all if the block cells were filled?
      Not really. The concrete in the cores is not a complete band of the pond and the distance from core to core would be too great for the amount of mateial in the core filling mix. I may be wrong, but I feel if it does what it is advertised to do, allowing the Xypex admix to penetrate the block, by one or more direct applications on the block, the crystals may form in the block, sufficient to make the block water tight, but the pores in the block may just be too large to be sealed by this material. Try painting a block, build a silicone or similar dam and pond water on it for a day or two and then look inside the cores to see if they are getting damp or wet. You may need to perform this experiment several times to allow the moisture to react with the Xypex and form crystals before it shows any waterproofing effect.
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      Richard

    19. #19
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      richtoybox is offline Administrator
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      If it does not seal block, then I would have a hard time believing it would seal any cracks that you could see with the naked eye. Again, size of void, and size of crystal, and amount of material available for making crystal.

      As I said on another post, it has been about 30 years ago that I evaluated the product, so I cannot remember much about it, except that we did not see a need for it in our concrete for bridges and highway structures.
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      Thisisme
      i really love a guy that speaks their mind and has an informed opinion.
      Do not get me wrong. I am not saying it does not work. Quite the contrary. I am sure it works as I have used pretty much the same formula before but at not near the cost. I was just commenting on the cost as compared to comparable if not the exact same products that have been around for decades.

      Steve can correct me if I am wrong but I think the cost for the Xyplex additive added something like $22 per yard of mix.

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