• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
    Results 21 to 40 of 40

    Thread: Ammonia Levels in fish ponds and shipping bags

    1. #21
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458

      more data

      I found a 150 page EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) monograph on line about the ammonia toxicity to fish at:

      http://epa.gov/waterscience/criteria/ammonia/index.html

      Then click on the icon for the 150 page report at the bottom of the page shown as shown below after clicking the link above:

      1999 Ammonia Update (PDF) (153 pages, 790 K)

      I copied and pasted the key chart below from that 150 page document. Incidentally, carp are listed in MANY research publications to be tested to be the least sensitive to ammonia levels of all varieties of fish tested for ammonia toxicity.

      Notice please that the less sensitive fish varieties have LC50 levels (concentration that kills half the fish in the test period) above 100 ppm in the EPA chart:
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #22
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,336
      Most of the ponder around here have pH that are up in the 7.5 plus range and at those pH's ammonia is toxic and gets progressively more toxic the high the pH goes ...even low amounts like 0.5

      Anytime that there is readable ammonia, using our standard test kits, in the system steps should be taken to correct the problem



      If you are running low pH like 7.4 and lower and get a total ammonia reading down in the 0.1 range then it's not much of a problem but again steps should be taken to correct the problem


      ....there is no such thing as acceptable levels of ammonia........period!

    3. #23
      KoiCop's Avatar
      KoiCop is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Costa Mesa, CA
      Posts
      736

      Dr. Roddy . . .

      Thanks for digging that chart up and sharing it with us.

      One question though:

      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad
      Notice please that the less sensitive fish varieties have LC50 levels (concentration that kills half the fish in the test period) above 100 ppm in the EPA chart.
      The chart's vertical axis shows "mg N/L" whereas you use "ppm" when discussing concentration levels; are those the same thing? Thanks, Don

    4. #24
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,336
      Don yes they are the same thing.

      Just to add something to my post above...I've been reading Dr George Post book on fish health and on pg 57 he discusses Bacterial Gill Disease..........which is generally caused by the gills being irritated and then attacked by bacterial...the 1st irritant that he mentions is ammonia and it's affect on the gills. Given constant expousre to low levels the gills go hyperplasic and it's these cells that get attacked......ammonia is not a good thing at any level

      HB Roddy

      G

    5. #25
      Eluned is offline KHA
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Saint Louis, Missouri
      Posts
      910
      Roddy - how long did it take you to check the pH of the bag water after they were opened? Since the fish were bagged with pure O2, and respiration gives off CO2, as soon as the bags were opened, the equilibrium between the gas and water in the previously closed system would have changed. the actually pH of the water may have been even lower than you measured.
      Lynne in St. Louis

    6. #26
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      milligrams per liter (mg/L) and ppm (parts per million) mean the same thing as Graham replied.

      Yes, Lynne, your point is correct. The pH of water varies significantly depending on sample history and test conditions.

      I closed the bags as soon as we took out the fish until I could make the readings, in answer to your question. But it is definitely possible the pH was even lower in the bag before opening it, no argument.

      And Graham's points about bacterial gill disease are also correct, in that chronic problem ammonia levels do lead to bacterial gill disease. The issue is how much ammonia how long will lead to bacterial gill disease on what variety of fish? Please note one of the references I cited above discusses that very issue for carp on page 2, post 19, of this thread. Except instead of using the general term bacterial gill disease they were more specific about gill symptoms with more scientific terms for the observations, as usual in technical publications.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    7. #27
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I checked the main government database for toxicity data and found a study of 16 month old carp at 4 ppm (4,000 ppb in the table) measured ammonia level for 31 days. The carp were examined versus controls in every possible way, and no changes nor deaths nor illnesses were evident in this scientific study versus appropriate controls.

      Okay, it is not good to have significant amounts of ammonia in a koi pond, no argument. My point is that panicking at 0.5 ppm measured ammonia for a few days is inappropriate to the situation when in a scientific study they could not find any effect of keeping 16 month old carp (same as koi) at 4 ppm for 31 days. That's all I was trying to say.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    8. #28
      Graham's Avatar
      Graham is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Halifax Nova Scotia
      Posts
      5,336
      Okay, it is not good to have significant amounts of ammonia in a koi pond, no argument. My point is that panicking at 0.5 ppm measured ammonia for a few days is inappropriate to the situation when in a scientific study they could not find any effect of keeping 16 month old carp (same as koi) at 4 ppm for 31 days. That's all I was trying to say.
      Ok that I'll agree with, but as I said earlier if it's readable then the problem needs to be addressed. If the ponder has a high PH then that problem becomes even more of an issue.....

      I know what you where trying to say but orntamental fish hobbyists need to address any ammonia reading regardless of pH and temp as soon as possible...what's the problem and how do I fix it

      G
      __________________

    9. #29
      Koi Story's Avatar
      Koi Story is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      México
      Posts
      388
      Appendix 5. Histopathological Effects
      Fewer results of the effects of chronic exposure of aquatic life to ammonia are available that results of the effects of acute exposures. The available data indicate that ammonia can have adverse effects on aquatic life at relatively low concentrations, approaching 0.001 to 0.006 mg NH3-N/L. These reported adverse effects include quantitative data showing that decreased survival, growth, and reproduction are correlated to increasing concentrations of ammonia.
      ... Non-salmonid fish species have exhibited similar effects, with the calculated “no apparent growth effect” concentrations ranging from 0.03 mg NH3-N/L at pH=6.6 to 0.05 mg NH3-N/L at pH=8.68
      Quote from page 124 http://epa.gov/waterscience/criteria...a/99update.pdf

      ks
      hatsukoi
      My love is as a fever, longing still
      For that which longer nurseth the disease,
      Shakespeare, Sonnet CXLVII

    10. #30
      Harveythekoi is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Burton, Tx.
      Posts
      4,945

      This is the best chart I've found.

      It also takes temperature into account along with pH.

      When building the pond I had the fish in a temp 3000 gallon pool. It got a leak in the bottom amd we drained almost all the way down. After filling the fish started to show distress and we broke out the test kits to find ammonia from the chloramines through the roof. Even though the temps were low our pH is very high and that lead to the deaths of two fish. Binder helped save the rest.

      That was my lesson on water changes and chloramine. Granted that was almost a 100% change but for those of you who panic about low levels of ammonia and nitrites sometimes water changes can add to the problem.

      Garrett

      http://cnykoi.com/calculators/calcnh3c.asp

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #31
      aartwmich's Avatar
      aartwmich is offline Insatiably Curious Ponderer
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      South West Michigan
      Posts
      3,724
      Interesting stuff ... short term high levels of ammonia with low Ph, don't panic-got it!

      Agree with Graham tho that ammonia over 1.0 and higher Ph ponds needs to be tended to.

      BTW Roddy.... HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

      Anne (the 'e' is silent) the Armchair Ponder


      Judge no one by their outward appearance or where they work or live or worship........but by the content of their character displayed in the integrity of their actions.

    12. #32
      kgt1223's Avatar
      kgt1223 is offline The Tancho King!
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Tampa Florida...Brandon
      Posts
      1,762
      Well, this is all very technically stimulating but......................

      WHERE ARE THE **** FISH PICS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    13. #33
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      What fish do you want to see?
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    14. #34
      koitoo is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Sep 2005
      Location
      New England
      Posts
      972
      Roddy,

      Keifer meant your 5 B-day gifts (the Brady's babies)!

      Thank you for starting this thread. It is extremely educational...Happy B-day!!
      Happy Koiing!!! Water and nothing but water or filtration????

    15. #35
      kgt1223's Avatar
      kgt1223 is offline The Tancho King!
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Tampa Florida...Brandon
      Posts
      1,762
      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad
      What fish do you want to see?
      Brady brought me 5 new koi from his fish farm near Charlotte, NC, yesterday on my 65th birthday, a little deal Lizzie had arranged.
      BTW


      HAPPY BIRTHDAY RODDY

    16. #36
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I posted the pics Brady took of the birthday koi on the birthday thread, post no 6, at:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...t=46613&page=1

      However, as Lizzie and I agree, the koi are much higher quality than indicated by Brady's pics.

      We have not taken pics of them yet because they are currently going through my standard shotgun parasite eradication procedure for new arrivals in the main indoor koi pond. I have treated them in the main indoor koi pond at 25 ppm Formalin levels for the last three days in a row, verifying each time that within 24 hours the biofiltration system for the indoor koi pond completely biotreats all the formalin out of the pond.

      After two more of the 25 ppm treatments, next comes Supaverm, then Dimilin.

      Then they will be ready to come out in the bright sunshine and warmer water where pics will do them justice to their high quality. Then we will post our own pics.

      Brady agreed (when asked directly) they should preferably be treated with a competent shotgun parasite treatment in quarantine.

      The birthday koi are shown in our main indoor koi pond in the next KoiFixx video, along with some other koi that were already in there keeping the filter cycled for late fall and Winter, when we on a single selected day move almost all the koi to the indoor koi pond for winter.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    17. #37
      Mr Pete is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      North of Boston, MA
      Posts
      414
      Roddy...as always I find your posts very informative. Thank you.

      This thread raises a question with me. If one is bagging Koi for shipping, why not use a product like "Ultimate" made by the same company that makes "Chlormax" the ammonia detoxifier (they call it..not a 'binder') and insure that the Koi travel in less stress?

      "Ultimate" per description in the 2006 AES catalog reads:

      "This convenient, fully functional water conditioner instantly removes chlorine, chloramines and ammonia from fresh or salt water. It also detoxifies copper and heavy metals, boosts alkalinity and adds essential electrolytes needed for proper fish growth. It is excellent for conditioning new water in ponds. Can also be used in shipping bags during transport. When testing for ammonia, a salicylate test kit must be used. One gallon treats approximately 7,680 gallons."

    18. #38
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I am not an expert at shipping koi in bags.

      But if Ultimate boosts alkalinity, then you would not want it in a shipping bag, since you want the pH to drop in the shipping bag to make the high ammonia less toxic.

      Fish farmers who regularly ship koi add nothing to the bag but water, fish, and oxygen. I presume they have studied this process and the various chemicals, and know what they are doing. Meaning Brady bagged the fish, they got here fine, are doing fine in quarantine, and, YES, the water in the bag measured 10 ppm ammonia.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    19. #39
      Mikeyzr's Avatar
      Mikeyzr is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2006
      Location
      Minnesota
      Posts
      445
      Thought I'd bump this one back up.

      My Bradygoi just came today. This is my first batch of koi, ever. As my luck goes, Brady and I find out last minute that Delta doesn't ship to my location. So, we use UPS next day am. Although I don't know the exact time they were packaged, I'd estimate at about 7am CST (as Brady called me around 930am) I got 8 koi ranging from about 6.5" to 11", average being 9". UPS rolled in my driveway at 1030 am CST this morning on the nuts. So, that's 27.5 hours of ship/bag time. Brady said temps were in the 90's there, and I had temps in the lower 80's here.

      After doing some acclimating, I scooped out some bag water for testing. My digital temp said 79F. Paramaters as follows

      GH 161.1
      KH 125.3
      PH 6.8
      NH3 6MG/L !!

      The ammonia was off the scale. I just estimated one shade darker to 6MG/L but it was definately over 5! When I opened the box, I saw 8 pairs of eyes gazing up at me, happy to get into some clean water!

      Mike
      ___________

      Upper Midwest Koi Club
      Who's this disclaimer guy anyway?

    20. #40
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I had to dilute the water in the shipping bag by a factor of 5 to get the ammonia on the scale of my test procedures. And both procedures gave exactly 10 ppm from 7 hours in the shipping bag from Brady's farm to my house.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •