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  • Page 3 of 13 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
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    Thread: The great annual biofilter cycle time debate, or who can talk the longest?

    1. #41
      Roark's Avatar
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      Sorry Lee. We pachyderms do tend to root-up the pea-patch, don't we? Speaking of which....

      HEY JR!!! How are your "chemoautotrophs" working THIS morning?

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
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    2. #42
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      what? what's wrong with that?

      NO2- + 0.5 O2 ---} NO3-

      And sparky, I'll be glad to give you some sources but what has your panty hose twisted about that statement?

    3. #43
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      JR, it's called basic chemistry. To go from nitrite to nitrate, you're going to be adding an oxygen ATOM per molecule. Go look at your earlier statement.

      So. July 8th?

      Roark
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    4. #44
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      errrr... Roark and Roddy, I keep seeing references to fish dying....you did get that part fixed, right???

    5. #45
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      aaah nit picking! No grasping for straws mate, if you can't even answer the 'FOUR GREAT QUESTIONS' put before you last evening! " Quick look over there!!!" as the R&R team runs out the door! LOL

      Here is the actual quote I was thinking of at midnight-ish last night-- it comes from Marine Aquarium Desk Reference ( systems and Invertebrates) by Dr Martin Moe. Page 176--
      " these bacteria gain energy through the oxidation process of tacking another oxygen atom onto the nitrite molecule ( NO2) and changing it to nitrate ( NO3)---"

      my apologies to Dr Moe for being sloppy in my wording.

      JR

    6. #46
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      OK here is what R&R research Inc are actually seeing in their not-so-profound experiment-

      But first some analogies! You would not make a leather glove three sizes too large for a hand and then say, “ Its OK, I’ll shrink it down to size later on” -----

      A biofilm, will mold itself to the nutrient source. That means that if you throw hunks of hamburger meat into a pond, you will get one kind of bacteria domination and if you through in bottled ammonia you will get another type of evolution to the biofilm in that pond. Now here’s the thing- a koi pond is an environment that MUST manage both organic waste AND inorganic waste. It is of no value that a biofilm is created that can only manage inorganic ammonia from a fish’s gills.
      On the other extreme, we do not want a system that is loaded with organics to the point that nitrifiers are pushed into a minor role. This can get complicated and maybe something for another thread, but suffice it to say, ammonia can inhibit uptake of other nitrogen wastes like nitrate. So we need to create a system that will do both mineralization as a minimal role and nitrification as a major role. Fortunately this is not as hard to accomplish as it sounds. Because the old line “ if you build it, they will come” is very appropriate to the situation. Meaning, you simply need to provide the right environment, the right filtering techniques, the right media surface, the right circulation and these things will happen automatically.

      What the R&R brain trust fails to grasp is that what a pond biofilm WILL be and what it is INITIALLY are often too different things. This is why we have a phrase called ‘New Pond Syndrome’.

      The rapidly appearing, rapidly reproducing heterotrophic species can not complete a nitrification cycle. But they can mimic it! This is a CLASSIC dynamics when setting up a new pond or aquarium. Perhaps this was said best by Quastel and Scholefield way back in their paper published in 1951- Significant ammonia oxidation by nitrifiers proceeds only after heterotrophic population has subsided and stabilized.
      By providing the type of organic material the brain trust did, they supercharged the heterotrophic populations into a frantic cellular division. The ammonia drops but the cycle can not go anywhere. In addition , bacteria of this kinda community , as an incubator concept, will include large numbers of opportunistic pathogens- including the aeromonas, flexibacter and pseudomonas groups. The deaths are more likely due to the general stress of the water chemistry created by the addition of copious amounts of material- or simple infections of the gills? I really can only guess.
      Here is the final point- once this system is allowed to do its own thing, it will revert to a normal cycle and mold itself to the actual nutrient source - in terms of quantity and quality of that specific nutrient source. In other words, in spite of R7R research team’s best efforts to derail the natural cycle, it will correct for the interference and proceed normally after they get over themselves and walk away. But New Pond Syndrome will be Bee-ach! Ergo the El morte nishikigoi along the way.

      JR

    7. #47
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      Ah. I see it all now. Very cool.

      First JR says it won't work, can't work, etc. Then he he gets so grumpy he can't tell the simple difference between atoms and molecules. (He'd have slaughtered Roddy if Roddy had made that mistake... but for someone else it was just an excusable "oopsie!" because *he* knew what he *really* meant.) But suddenly JR is effectively saying that this hare-brained scheme just *might* work but of course it can't possibly work the way *he* thinks we *said* it does.

      What I clearly said is the ammonia and nitrite get converted. And I specifically stated that I didn't understand any of it. And I specifically stated that I didn't think it was via the usual bunch of aquatic nitrifiers. Go back and read the posts. I posted nothing but observations... which were summarily disemboweled by JR.

      But now, in the face of having to come here and actually see it happen, someone is suddenly formulating new facts, revising history, and inserting his *opinions* about experiments he's never even seen and claimed were JUNK. Someone has managed to go from a "it can't possibly work" to a "well...here is what they're REALLY seeing".

      I love Revisionists.

      I'll say it again. And this is a verbatim quote from my earlier post. Nothing has changed:

      Do I understand why the ammonia goes to nitrite so quickly? Nope!
      Do I understand why the nitrite goes to nitrate so quickly? Nope!
      Do I understand why fish sometimes die... and other times live? Nope!
      Do I understand how ANY of it works? Nope!

      Recall that it was JR's position just last night that it CAN NOT WORK. Period. And that the "experiment" was laughable and a complete waste of time. Now he seems to be saying it COULD work. What next? An admission that it DOES work, but he'd never use it in a "proper koi pond"?

      July 8th is coming, JR. And there isn't any way you can spin what you posted earlier. Nor can you state that "JR was the voice of reason / lets all keep an open mind". The threads have been printed and the audience was listening.

      Spin again.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    8. #48
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      hey Sparky, I'm not spinning or changing a thing- The hypothesis was that you could cycle a pond system in 3 days. That is completely stupid. I have not changed my position on that an ounce. What I was attempting to do was show you how the actually likely dynamics could lead you to believe you had a cycle. So all these 'ahha's! aside, I've been very consistent here.
      1) Roddy can not perform a complete nitrification cycle in 3 days, nor can you.
      2) the drop in ammonia is not a 'cycle'.
      3) bacteria have certain limitations on their life cycle and you can't change that with various powders.
      4) I was simply trying to help you two to understand what you were actually seeing and how you were misinterpreting your results.

      I also told Roddy and you both that other species can mimic nitrification. It is well established that nonlithotrophic bacteria and fungi have the capacity to oxidize NH+4. And this heterotrophic process appears not to be connected with microbial growth. It is likely a form of co-oxidation. The key here , Sport, will be the amounts of nitrate produced. If the nitrate production is negligible, you are looking at heterotrophic activity.
      JR

    9. #49
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      JR:

      You are booked on Southwest flight 4277*/1876, departs Newark, NJ for Houston, Hobby at 1:52 PM on Friday, July 8, 2005. You'll arrive at 7:20 PM. I'll pick you up at the airport. You'll return via Southwest on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 at 1:45 PM via flight 496/4282*. You'll arrive home at 8:27 PM. You will be our "Honored Guest Speaker". Suitable room and board where you can personally supervise the experiment 24/7 will be provided.

      I will provide a laptop projector with a document arm, a 100 inch screen and a microphone/dry-erase board. Your "why this is absurd nonsense and can't possibly work" presentation will begin at 9:00 AM on Saturday, July 9, 2005. I'll have a hardcopy of everything you've posted in this thread available for your use. After your presentation I won't be making any comments. Results speak louder than lectures. Post-lecture I'm simply dumping-in the brew and starting the well-class as planned. Feel free to get hot and sweaty with the rest of us "hands-on" types if you like. Failing that, stay out of the way.

      Several folks have emailed asking if they could video-tape this. I don't have a problem with it, but I figured I'd better ask you.

      Please email me with a physical address where I can FedEx your ticket.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    10. #50
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      JR... one more thing. Be sure to bring your assortment of meters.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


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    11. #51
      Bonnie-IN is offline Inactivated
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      OOOOOHHHHH we always love a good debate as long as it doesn't get personal! :mad:


      Roddy so glad to see that you are feeling much better now, you rested up for this one!


      "It's all about the hobby!"

    12. #52
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      Since both sides can't be right if you're talking about the same thing, I thought I'd check a definition.
      This is what I see:
      New pond syndrome (Roddy): The period of time in a new pond that the bio filter is growing to handle the ammonia produced by the fish. Beginning with either the introduction of fish or ammonia, it is marked by measurable ammonia followed by nitrite. Ending when the nitrite is gone.

      New pond syndrome (JPR): The period of time in a new pond when bacteria and algae species are battling to stake their claim on the available nutrients in the pond. Beginning with the introduction of the nutrient source (fish addition or other means) , reaching a midpoint when the desirable mix of species (both flora and fauna) have establish themselves as the dominant forms in the pond, and finally ending when the pond reaches maturity. Marked by stability in species type and density, and in the case of bio filters a well established protective biofilm.

      Am I close or way off base?
      Dan
      What you see is much less a matter of what you're looking at than where you're looking from.

      I don't know much, but there's quite a bit that I choose to believe.

    13. #53
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      Talking

      I don't speak for Roddy, so I'll let him fight his own battles. Me? I speak for myself. Recall:

      Quote Originally Posted by Roark
      Actually, you can cycle a filter in 3 days or less. And that's without using any "pre-seeded" media for "starters". That's counting from the moment you add water and "evil" chemicals, to the time you can support a significant fish load.
      The experts can rant/rave/beat on their drums, but at the end of the day, that snippet above says it all. JR can define "cycle" however he wants. He can even pooh-pooh one species of bug over another. I really don't care. Certainly the fish don't have laboratories, don't read textbooks, and don't know or care what species is processing their sewage... just as long as it gets done promptly and without hurting them. If those species die-out and are eventually replaced by other bugs... wonderful!

      However you do it, and by whatever names you call it, it's all the same: No ammonia? No nitrite? Low nitrate? BINGO. You've got a winner. The bookworms can call the responsible species "BlammoBacter" for all I care.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    14. #54
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      Roark, you're a lovely lad for making the offer but unfortunately, that weekend is the beginning of 'Birthday week' for yours truly. Besides, you people carry guns out there. I only have a knife. And if we are going to do this right, I need to stay for 21 days- even my own saintly grandmother can't put up with me for 21 days!

      Dan, that is incorrect, but if Dr Peach chooses that definition then we will all begin to see where his misunderstanding is coming from. What you described was the end of the cycle for establishing a biofilm -that moment when the nitrite reading drops to clear after remaining very high for a few days to a week ( just as harmful as the ammonia spikes that occurred earlier). It signals the completion of the cycle. But the film may still not be in equilibrium and things like green water and periodic nitrite spikes are still possible. So it takes on average 21 days to cycle at 70 F and up to another 3 months to become stable and truly in equilibrium. During that time, you will see the algae evolve on the pond walls as well. Some have experienced new pond syndrome for as long as a year. Perhaps the greatest barometer are the fish. It is very common during this New Pond syndrome period to have fish with nagging infections and ulcers, flashing and blooms of parasites. All linked to new pond syndrome.
      JR

    15. #55
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      Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. I took away all of your excuses and even bought you a ticket. (I did this only after you said "I'm thinking about it" because I didn't think it was fair to make you spend $500...and then lose.). I lined-up folks to shoot video (Paul) and double-check your measurements (Blammo). I offered you a chance to get it ALL out in the open and even make an educational seminar of it. Today I spent bolting together the test fixture, stealing parts for it, etc. I've even got two Lim pumps coming-in on a hot-shot Tuesday for this project.

      But in the end it's all a waste. This was never about proof for you. It was about domination, opinions, and obtuse rantings. You said "prove it", and then you backed away from the proof.

      No matter, JR. We still love you. And you do have pretty fish. And you're a darned good koi judge, too. In fact, you're one of the (book-) smartest people I've met.

      But... So much for "Show Me", eh?

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    16. #56
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      do it in Chantilly!!!
      MCA
      Too much sanity may be madness and maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be.



    17. #57
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      I'm still wondering why "it" did not work on the virgin system Roddy referenced in the first post. If "it" only works sometimes, then it is as fair to say something else was involved and "it" never worked.

      The experimentation is all good to do, but if it is not consistent and subject to reliable repetition, I'd suggest it is not appropriate to encourage others to risk it.

    18. #58
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      Ed-Zachary, Mike. Which is why the Full Monty hasn't been published. This is called "in-the-trenches-experimental-goofing". I certainly don't want the basement plonkings of two "nitwit" koi-nuts to be touted as a cure-all for bio-cycle woes. The honest-to-Pete truth is we don't know why it works. But the RESULTS are clear.

      A comment: Roddy is using a rather different "mix" than I am, and seems to be having better luck. I haven't goofed with "my" mix for something like 4 years. Roddy kept the faith long after I'd gotten bored with it.

      Roark
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      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    19. #59
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      In defense of JR’s honor!

      The in-house tag team’s enforcer, Roark, has suggested here that I’m just ‘book educated’ and implied that I have no hands-on experience. I’d like to set that record straight.

      Sure I'm giving you all some 'book stuff'! It is a the body of knowledge accumulated in microbiology books, graduate text books, aquaculture books and popular aquarium text books. Nothing wrong with that? How would we all learn anything without books? You two boys have more degrees than a thermometer between you, I assumed some books were involved?
      But I also bring some practical experience to the table so I’m not just another pretty face! .

      Setting up even a simple aquarium can be an art form as much as a science. This is particularly true when it comes to seeding a pond or fish tank and also, in setting up, before hand, what your system will actually be like when it stabilizes. It takes a lot of vision to appreciate this last sentence- something you don’t just get from a book.
      I have sent up, over my life time, conservatively, 70 aquarium and pond set ups. In fact today, I have five aquariums running, one pond and a quarantine system. The fish tanks house marine fish ( some born right here!), live bearer tropicals, wild fish from the streams and estuaries of North Carolina and fancy goldfish ( for the love of GOD, do not let that get out!)

      I'm pretty impulsive about the fish tanks, and a few times a year, I tear one or two down, give the fish and offspring to the pet store and move onto another variety, or another ecosystem theme, a few months later. So I have cycled many many systems. I have also consulted and advised the fish stores/ wholesalers setting up their systems. Did a huge one in a wholesale facility with a central system that circulated 16 thousand gallons of water! I also designed a fluidized bed unit at the end of every bank of tanks in another wholesale facility. That was way back in the mid eighties. It ran on simple silica sand! The clouds within the clear cylinders ‘undulated’ with a white cloud of suspended sand and the stocking levels were obscene, yet the death rates dropped 20% in those banks for tanks.
      I have published papers/articles in marine magazines and one journal regarding the conditioning of biofilm to copper levels and another regarding the transfer of media to avoid a new cycling event in new systems. You can read old articles about biofilters I wrote in NI, Koi USA, MAKC and numerous club newsletters. Most are penned before the two member R&R wonder team were even in the hobby, I suspect?
      In the koi hobby I began using Trickle towers when they weren’t cool! The year was 1986. I understood even back then, the importance of degassing water loaded with the waste of a large fish and how this negatively effected nitrifiers. The concepts of reducing bio-fouling and the advantage of expanding water/atmosphere square footage seemed like good ones - and I never looked back! These concepts are now available, twenty years later, to the average hobbyists in the form of the nexus ( dynamic media) and bakki shower ( wet/dry biofilter). Yours truly had this concepts down in 1986.
      I still was not satisfied, however. The winters separate the pond keeping hobby from the aquarium hobby. By winter’s presence, a fundamental problem is created for all bacteria and more precisely, for the mature biofilms- I.E.- survival.
      In all modesty, I think I was the first hobbyist that moved filters indoors in this region of the country , and began to heat the base of the media itself? I’m sure there were others somewhere, but I did it in kinda a unique way I think? I pleased insulted plastic coated copper coils inside the base of Trickle towers ( in flooded portion) so that warm water and warm air rose in the eight foot tall columns. This was done with a small recirculation pump and a boiler. In this design, the bacteria is always warmer than the fish. Think about that one for a minute---
      The biofilm never died and old sloughs off due to trickle action. Hey my biofilm was 19 years only last month!! My experiments in the marine hobby and the conditioning of biofilm to manage therapeutic levels of copper taught me the value of aged and ‘locally’ evolved biofilm.

      What I’m trying to say is , I have a balanced view point here and not just the book stuff that only provides a background for understanding. The ‘cartoon-like’ descriptions of biofilm that we tend to read about in lighter weight fish publications are a good primer only. Yet without this basic ‘book knowledge’ you will find your thoughts will be all over the map in terms of what is possible and what is not possible in an emerging biofilm. R&R research is proving that right here- if you don’t have a good working understanding of the underlying biological facts, all things seem possible? Unfortunately many of these things are grounded in actual well documented PROFESSIONAL experiments that have been proven over and over again through the last thirty years of scientific research and published papers. It may cause a tantrum in the uninformed R&R research team, but it is none the less , the way it is. The creation and addition of concoctions and potions to pure virgin water in order to create strange new microbial forms that appear in three days and make ammonia and nitrite disappear, only sometimes kill the fish, is a romantic and exciting notion! Unfortunately, it also requires that your mind is free from all actual scientific facts. I’m ruined boys, I’ve read too many books!
      Now, I’m off to work with last night’s dish water. I think I’m onto a cure for cancer!

      JR
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    20. #60
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      Didn't yer mama tell ya you'd go blind if you keep doing that?

      Roark
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