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    Thread: The great annual biofilter cycle time debate, or who can talk the longest?

    1. #21
      MikeM is offline Super Member
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      It seems to me that there needs to be an explanation and understanding of why the combination of additives did not result in prompt cycling of the new system before one can conclude that the procedure did cause a 3 day cycle in the old system.

      Reliable repetition is needed, or one may simply be assuming a conclusion.

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    2. #22
      Roark's Avatar
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      See Roddy? I knew this was a mistake.

      Back into the closet we go.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    3. #23
      Roark's Avatar
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      I just read JR's rant on NI. Very, very nice. And exactly what we'd expect from JR.

      JR: For the record, let me tell you what you MOST want to hear:

      1). The method is a myth.
      2). The experiments were a sham.
      3). We were all just kidding.
      4). It simply can't be done.
      5). The "Real Koi Judge" is always right.
      6). The Japanese invented it first.

      Feel better? Good for you. God bless.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    4. #24
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Well Roark, I've had about enough of the back bitting. Same thing your gal pulled a few weeks back. I forgive you both, you've had burrs under your saddles for a while- not sure why, but I've sensed it for a year.
      Your experiment is just stupid- sorry, that is how it is. I'm not saying that, all the scientific information compiled to date is saying that, I'm just the messenger. But I tried to give you an 'in' to try and prove your point. I was even willing to try and understand where you and Roddrick were misinterpreting the facts and observations. I honestly think you smelled the details and knew you would be swamped, so you are pulling a hissy fit as a way out.
      So you are always saying bring you the proof- now mate, bring ME the proof. You have already back peddled and suggested that mystery bacteria sabotaged your experiment. Could it be there was never an 'experiment'? Or at least that the results don't match the hypothesis or back it up in any way? Let's talk about why the three day wonder didn't work. I'll be kind, no victory dance, lets just get the newbies on track. I'll check my ego at the door if you can manage to do the same.
      let's start with the basics- what is an ammonia/ nitrification cycle? Your go first. Little Jim

    5. #25
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
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      Today and tomorrow, I have a better playground for my mind. My co-inventor of key on line analysis technology for waste water streams in chemical factories (and elsewhere) showed up this morning to work with me on the newest and latest modifications to make our toys more productive and useful. Mike has two Ph.D. degrees, one in computer science, the other in nuclear reactor control (for which he had to have a very good security clearance!). He is an ideal playmate, and comes in every three months for a few days as my favorite work playmate in the chemical factory. When he leaves sometime this weekend to fly off to his next venture (he has a new one every week), then I will think about posting to this thread again in a meaningful way.

      And, NO, Roark, I am not in retirement. I left one big chemical firm on my 60th birthday in 2001 to go across town to take the same assignment for another big chemical company. I like getting a full retirement from one company and a full paycheck from another one, it allows me to buy more fun playtoys.

      Later.

      Have a good time in the meantime!
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    6. #26
      Bancherd is offline Junior Member
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      Talking

      I am all ears, Roddy and Roark.

      Do you have high-resolution graphs(enough to show peaks and valleys) of ammonia/nitrite/and nitrate concentrations during this cycle?

      It would be nice to compare these graphs to conventional ~3 weeks cycle-time graphs.

      Regards,

    7. #27
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      R & R , You guys started this by tweeking and bulling me out of thin air sooo now you have to both deal with me, here are the questions I want answered before the final swan song----


      1) How is adding material to virgin water able to increase the life cycle and cell division ( at any temperature) of nitrifiers? According to some math I just did , you will need to reduce the cell division time interval to once every 30 minutes to create the physical numbers in 36 hours to handle say 20 pounds of koi. Am I mistaken in my belief that nitrifying bacteria is a slower grower than that? Or is there no physical limitation on cell division given enough ‘food’ ( I love that!) They can be grown at almost any rate- maybe down to minutes and seconds for each cell division?

      2) How were you two able to overcome the fact that second stage nitrifiers are inhibited by high ammonia levels and every published study I have ever read says there is a lag time between the establishment of the 'tag team' unless you use Morin’s method?

      3) If temperature is not as important a factor as baking soda, calcium or kitty litter, why is it that bacteria do not operate at the same rate in winter water as they do in summer? Is there any limit on the R&R method or does it simply work based on how much buffer you put in the water? If this is true how is it, acidic low buffered water like tetra tanks, are also able to cycle in 21 days, same as the marine systems??

      4) And finally speaking of marine systems, saltwater in home systems is a synthetic mix in the vast majority of cases. It is very hard, very well buffered , loaded with carbonates, bicarbonates, has a high pH ( 8.2) etc. In most cases these folks use a trickle system below the tank. But they all seem to still need 18-21 days minimum to get a complete cycle from their systems? Why is that? Is it your opinion that they just think it takes 21 days and that it should only take 3 days under these conditions?

    8. #28
      Roark's Avatar
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      JR: I'm having a few dozen of the resident Koiphen crazies over in a few weeks for dinner, beer, and some good, unwholesome, playing-in-the-water-that-we-drilled-our-own-selves fun. It starts on a Friday and there will be folks staying through Tuesday or even a bit later. That should be plenty of time for our little experiment.

      To that end I'll steal a 150 gallon stock tank (my cattle will be less than amused), a couple of heaters, and I believe everything else I'll need for the brew is still in the chem locker.

      Just to keep it fair I'll rope someone else into doing the testing portion. Maybe I can get Doug (Blammo) to bring his own kit so you'll know I'm not sandbagging. Me? I'll fill the stock-tank up, toss-in a bubbler and the "brew mix", and the rest of it can speak for itself. If it works, it's because Roddy took the time to make it work. He didn't let the know-it-all blowhards discourage him. He kept chipping away at the problem regardless of the abuse he got from "experts". For my part all I did was take what he gave me and tested it. And it worked. Simple, really. And I wish I could take the credit... but that wouldn't be fair.

      Do I understand why the ammonia goes to nitrite so quickly? Nope!
      Do I understand why the nitrite goes to nitrate so quickly? Nope!
      Do I understand why fish sometimes die... and other times live? Nope!
      Do I understand how ANY of it works? Nope!

      In truth, I do suspect a few things, but I've learned to keep my opinions to myself. Your previous rants on the impossibility of a new disease (KHV) killing fish taught me well.

      You really ought to attend, JR. You can be our guest of honor. I think it would be wonderful for the Texas Contingent to see you again. In fact, consider yourself invited. RSVP if you're interested. Dates are Friday, July 8th until... well... until the last man sobers-up.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    9. #29
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      All right I'm POed and I want some satisfaction, so please allow me to bring every one along so that we can evaluate the R&R research together. I will footnote all the statements I make for reference and further study. ( if nothing else we can all learn something)

      Post #1

      what is nitrification? Once we have had mineralization- the microbial breaking down of organic matter to inorganic matter, we have nitrification. Typically, this involves two symbiotic species that oxidize inorganic nitrogen ( ammonia) to other forms of nitrogen ( nitrite and then nitrate). The species that do this are hotly in debate in the microbiology community. But the ‘sets’ of tag teams are well known- In the first group, the ones that break down ammonia to nitrite we have many genera:
      1) Nitrosomonas - the prototype studied bacteria ( an ellipsoidal or rod shaped bacteria
      2) Nitrosospira - the bacteria that Dr Tom Havonec put on the map by saying it was the freshwater dominating form.
      3) Nitrosococcus
      4) Nitrosolobus

      These are all chemo– auto– trophic bacteria . And they make their living by tearing apart molecules of ammonia , using the energy derived and throwing out the waste product as a molecule of nitrite and two molecues of oxygen.

      The second set of bacteria families that is almost always found growing among and around the first set is the group that takes that nitrite waste and used it for their energy. This group is made up of :
      1) Nitrobacter - the classic mate to Nitrosomonas.
      2) Nitrospira
      3) Nitrococcus
      4) Nitrocystis

      These chemoautotrophs tack an oxygen atom onto the nitrite and change it to nitrate.

      These species also live on land , in the soil. And unfortunately, much of the printed literature is about these ‘farm animals’. That is OK as most of it applies to the ‘water cousins’, but not all.
      In the water environment, autotrophic species must find a place among a more successful heterotrophic host of species– and it is not easy. This is because there are numerous metabolic interconnections between microorganisms and among microorganisms and macro organisms.

      In a new pond, you must picture the beginning of ‘ the world’. It is truly a free for all as many species of algae and bacteria fight for the catalyst ammonia for their energy. This precious energy is called ATP and species like our nitrifiers must work extra hard to get the smallest amounts of this energy. It is said that nitrifiers work in a very tense energy situation. This means that for a cell to get enough energy ( ATP) it must oxidize 30 grams of NH3 to derive the same energy a heterotrophic species can gain from oxidizing 2 grams of glucose . As a result of this evolution , nitrifiers are known to have a long generation time and low growth yield. Some pros, in the lab, have pegged this time interval at once every 5- 8 hours depending on temperature and other factors.

      I’ll end here and allow R&R to add there own data to refute this information I posted.

      JR

      Microbial Ecology: Organisms , habitats , activities by Heinz Strolp Cambridge press
      The marine aquarium reference by Dr Martin Moe
      Saltwater aquariums: the captive environment by Spotte Wiley Interscience.
      Fish and Invertebrate culture second Edition by Stephen Scott PhD Wiley Interscience
      Advanced reef keeping, Albert Thiel. Aardvark press

    10. #30
      Brad Koikichi is offline Senior Member
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      Serenity was a product called New Pond which is Distributed by Koi Kare Kennel.

      Quote Originally Posted by Lee B
      Roddy, you adjust the calcium chloride, epsom salts, and baking soda to accommodate your water supply. What target ranges are you trying to achieve?

      Sheb, what's this "Serenity"??

      Lee
      Beauty is in the Eye of the Beer Holder

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    11. #31
      Roark's Avatar
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      JR: Your textbooks are WONDERFUL!

      So. July 8th? Southwest Airlines (via ATA) flies from Newark to Hobby for $400 bucks and the seats are still available.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    12. #32
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Nope , no good brother Roark, I want the science, not test results on a color kit. So you can appreciate what I'm asking- what good is a number - IN a moment in time, when the trend and cycle is everything?
      Here's the deal- I know Roddy , last time we bench raced this thing, though that a cycle was when the ammonia reading dropped. This is fundamental misunderstanding and therefore a misinterpretation of the observations. A ‘cycle’ is complete when the complete transformation of ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate is completed, instantaneous and in equilibrium with the source or ‘generator’ of that ammonia. If Roddy had bothered to look at the graph I provided him, he would have seen that inevitable lag time between phase one and phase two. Secondly, he never grasped the idea that heterotrophic species reproduce at five times the rate of nitrifiers and that they also will ‘grab’ ammonia just as algae. And in a fight, heterotrophics win every time! It is only when the plotting along nitrifiers eventually wrestle away the dominate roll, that the other species decline- but this is a choppy road. And choppy can be translated as ‘wasted’ time. This why the Morin method or reverse inorganic method was created. In other words, for speed, keep it clean and inorganic in composition, start the nitrite oxidizers first and then double back on the easy and hardy ammonia oxidizers.
      So honestly and sincerely, the zero reading in ammonia is meaningless. In fact , more aquarists only test for nitrite. This is the key to a complete cycle and not the drop in ammonia which is suspect , because so many organisms can cause that to happen. Even fungus and photo bacteria can create that illusion.
      JR

    13. #33
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      I'll think about it

    14. #34
      Roark's Avatar
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      Talking

      Quote Originally Posted by JPR
      Nope , no good brother Roark, I want the science
      What was all that earlier bluster about "showing" you? C'mon JR! I'm offering!

      (laughing politely)

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    15. #35
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      this is called ' Irish rage', its part of my charm-- JR

    16. #36
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      Very, very charming indeed.

      So. July 8th?

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    17. #37
      Koin-Onia is offline Koi Kowboy
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      Serenity is Ultimate - all the aloe crap Lee
      The Great Smoky Mountains Koi Club

    18. #38
      Koin-Onia is offline Koi Kowboy
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      Ok I got a question for Jr


      Your posts are very heavily backed with research and literature. And the explanation of the bacteria and various types was interesting reading now I am not taking anyones side on this debate (thats a nice word )

      It seems as though you are asking Roark for a different kind of proof that this works. I am unclear on what that is as I am no chemistand am wondering if you could put it in terms that I along with someothers can grasp better.

      What I read from Roark and Roddy is exciting and yes I hope it does work.
      Am I sceptical yep Kind of like the I am from Missouri state "Show me"
      The Great Smoky Mountains Koi Club

    19. #39
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      Quote Originally Posted by JR
      These chemoautotrophs tack an oxygen molecule onto the nitrite and change it to nitrate.
      JR... PLEASE tell me you don't actually believe this? Did this come from one of your books too? If so I want the NAME OF THE AUTHOR AND THE BOOK.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    20. #40
      Lee B's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brad Koikichi
      Serenity was a product called New Pond which is Distributed by Koi Kare Kennel.
      Shhhhh! When elephants do battle, the mice take cover! But I didn't want you to think I was ignoring your kind response. Thanks Brad!

      Lee

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