• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 13 123411 ... LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 257

    Thread: The great annual biofilter cycle time debate, or who can talk the longest?

    1. #1
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458

      The great annual biofilter cycle time debate, or who can talk the longest?

      About once a year, I publish some more biofiltration cycle data, and James Reillly (JR to most) spends about 10 to 100 times more time trying to discredit the data than I took to generate it. Let's see if this year is any different, or if perhaps JR is mellowing out a bit and can think outside of his tiny little box.

      Last Fall, I moved all my koi from my outside koi pond to my inside koi pond to drain the pond. There were two objectives. The bottom drain piping had a leak, and the bottom drain valve needed replacement. Since both of these were buried deep in the ground, and required an empty pond, I decided to simply leave that pond empty all winter and fix the plumbing this spring. I also ran a "soap" test on the empty pond right before Halloween for Daniel Moreing, and as a part of that test ran 6 consecutive 10 ppm PP treatments through the entire pond and filter system to completely clean it up and burn off the biofilm. Activated carbon was used finally to soak away the soap from the soap test, the consecutive PP treatments had the pond bright purple while the water had a suds stand 6 feet high for a week before the activated carbon was used to remove everything from the water and filter system before draining the pond.

      Well, finally last Sunday, the leak was fixed, the bottom drain valve was replaced, so I filled the pond with water and turned on the filter system. Then I added 500 milliliters of lab reagent ammonium hydroxide to dose the pond at a measured 2.4 ppm ammonia.

      That was Sunday. Today (the normal 4 day miracle of fast pond biofilter cycling) the pond tests 0.5 ppm ammonia, 0.03 ppm nitrite, and 0.0 ppm nitrate by advanced Hanna colorimeter test techniques. The filter is cycled and ready for fish. I will add another ammonia charge just to make sure, it will be consumed in two days I am sure.

      Why did the biofilter cycle so fast? Well, I dumped a 12 pond sack of baking soda into this 6000 gallon pond system. I dumped in 4 pounds of Koi Clay, also found to give fast biofilter cycle times, particularly for nitrite and nitrate cycling. I dunped in 3 pounds of pure calcium chloride and 3 pounds of Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate hydrate), also known to improve cycle time when the source water is soft with low mineral content. I have two large trickle tower filters, one is a No 5 Nevada Water Gardens lava rock fountain, meaning 24 inches in diameter and 36 inches high (heavy to move!). The other trickle tower is a homemade waterfall filled with feather rock in the air with water cascading over it. There is a Sacamento Koi bead filter and a Sacramento Koi glass filter in the system. There is a Nitritech 911 vortex system in the system. But the entire system had those 5 consecutive 10 ppm PP treatments right before draining the pond last Fall, one would think that would kill a biofilm very well.

      There is no visible algae anywhere, no plants to consume ammonia. If the ammonia is degassing from the trickle towers, okay, there is nothing wrong with that if it is happening, the water is still safe for the koi! But from all appearances, it just cycles that fast. That filter system cycled that fast when every component in it was brand new a few years ago, this week only repeated the data I generated before with this system.

      I also started up a virgin shower filter for my Brady growout koi recently. For some reason, that shower filter took 14 days to cycle, I don't know what delayed it. I used the same baking soda/Koi Clay/Epsom salt/calcium chloride mix in that simple system. The ammonia peaked in 6 days, I used Amquel to protect the fish, the ammonia was gone in 13 days. The nitrite peaked at 10 ppm on the 10th day, I used salt to protect the koi and did NO water exchange while the filter cycled. Lizzie said the growout koi acted differently when the ammonia was high and when the nitrite was high, but they did not get visibly sick, did not get ulcers, kept on growing, etc.

      Well, that's all I got to say, meaning filter cycling has not been a significant issue for me for many years since I "got the right formula". That formula is to have plenty of shower or trickle tower filtration, keep alkalinity high with baking soda, keep hardness in a good range, and overdose with a huge Koi Clay charge.

      It works for me, as they say on new car stickers, "your mileage may vary".

      Good luck out there, don't expect me to respond to JR's normal long rants on the impossibility of what I have documented so many times now. What am I going to believe, JR or my lying eyes?
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      emmalou is offline Inactivated
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Nanaimo. B.C. Canada
      Posts
      20,788
      Wow Roddy..that's alot of stuff in the new water eh?? But if it beigns to cycle that quickly..and it works for you...cheers! I am old fashioned..I like the natural cycle...but it's good to know that there are alternatives out there.

    3. #3
      Thomas T is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Sugar Land, Texas
      Posts
      760
      Roddy,

      Don't you think 0.5ppm ammonia is high for fish keeping ? At a PH of 8.4, I had lost Koi to that level of ammonia. When I cycled my new pond, it peaked at 0.5 ppm on ammonia after 10 days and the took another 14 days before it goes to zero. Again this was done on a Nexus system using seeded K1.

      TT

    4. #4
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      A level of 0.5 ppm ammonia at a pH of 8.3 certainly can make koi uncomfortable for a few days, but I have never seen them get visibly ill from that level of ammonia. But, after all, it will be gone tomorrow anyway, the cycle works that way in my filter systems. The Brady growout koi were tolerating a measured ammonia level of 2 ppm at a pH of 8.3 before I chose to throw in some Amquel to give them added comfort for the day or two it took the filter to finish its cycle on the ammonia.

      I don't remember ever saying that a Nexus with Kaldness media was remotely competitive with a nice pile of cheap lava rock in a trickle tower or shower filter configuration? From my view, you spent your money on a Nexus to get a small footprint of a biofilter that does not work nearly as well as many cheap DIY trickle tower or shower filter arrangements. Okay, the Nexus "looks better" beside the pond, but my preference is to put up a fence to hide the ugliness of cheap, DIY, more effective filter arrangements, or choose to view a visible trickle tower in my mind as a work of beauty for the good it does the pond. To each his own, it is just a hobby after all, everyone must choose their options according to their own ponding priorities.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    5. #5
      Sarge's Avatar
      Sarge is offline Good Ole Country Boy
      is Living Life!
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2004
      Location
      Clarksville, TN
      Posts
      8,644

      Time to GET IT ON!!!

      DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      "Sarge"


      Disclosure statement: Don't read into where I post, or with whom I choose to call my friend. If you know me - you know me. All people are created equal and all humans have fault.

    6. #6
      KoiCop's Avatar
      KoiCop is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Costa Mesa, CA
      Posts
      736

      Dr. Roddy . . .

      Wow, that's an impressive startup! Your regimen would certainly seem to short-circuit normal cycle times.

      As far as:

      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad
      About once a year, I publish some more biofiltration cycle data, and James Reillly (JR to most) spends about 10 to 100 times more time trying to discredit the data than I took to generate it.
      I don't know if JPR will bite or not. He hasn't posted on Koiphen in quite some time (since the "Chantilly Meeting Room" and "What is Koiphen" threads). Don

    7. #7
      WinginSue's Avatar
      WinginSue is offline Proud Propeller Head
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Spanaway WA
      Posts
      5,070
      Okay.. not trying to argue here but clarify. I was under the impression that cycling was because the bacteria needed to grow in order to convert the ammonia. Are you saying that, due to all the stuff you dumped in that the bacteria grew that fast? I'm wondering why the filter is doing so well so fast. I have an upflow barrel on my temporary holding tank. I've watched it for the last five weeks. The matting started out the tan color. I've watched the algae and all grow on it, and the barrel as it matured. A lot of the growth seems to have happened in the last week. It might be interesting, once the fish are out, to try clening the whole thing up and seeing if it will grow all that (since I can see it) faster.
      Suzette
      http://sues_oasis.home.comcast.net

      Member of the Blabbermouth Club



    8. #8
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      I have personally tested separately all the various "jump start" additives that work with MY water source to jump start a trickle tower or shower biofilter. I did the test of submerged media versus the same amount of media in a shower filter, and the shower filter cycled in one third the time to give four times the biofiltration capacity. This was the exact same media, namely virgin lava rock, and exactly the same amount of media in both filters.

      So the largest single effect of a biofilter cycling faster is the media being in the air rather than submerged under water, in MY tests, with either lava rock or bioballs as the filtration media. Change the test media, change the test condition, and you will get a different result.

      The single most important variable to get fast nitrite cycling, from my test work (and several others) is a massive overcharge of Koi Clay. How it stimulates nitrite cycling I don't understand, but it does it for sure, using my source water, in my tests. Higher alkalinity also helps, I run 200 to 500 ppm total alkalinity with baking soda.

      WinginSue has an upflow filter, meaning submerged media, without the "extras" of high koi clay, high alkalinity, good GH levels. Expect that DIFFERENT situation to take 4 to 8 weeks to cycle versus my result of 4 days.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    9. #9
      Roark's Avatar
      Roark is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      South of Latitude 89
      Posts
      2,668
      Actually, you can cycle a filter in 3 days or less. And that's without using any "pre-seeded" media for "starters". That's counting from the moment you add water and "evil" chemicals, to the time you can support a significant fish load.

      Yeah-yeah-yeah. And the experts say it can't be done. Pooey on them.

      Roddy and I ran some tests on this about 4 years ago. Neither of us had any luck with the "bottled bugs" so we went hunting our own. Roddy had a *very* sharp microbiologist he was working with who yielded some deep insights into how these nitrifiers grow, what they want to eat, and what they need to be happy. Based on that input, we started noodling. And goofing. And it worked.

      The only fly in the ointment was occasionally we'd come-up with a wierd mix of bugs which killed fish. Apparently when you tamper with nature she occasionally gets mad at you. But in other cases, it worked beautifully.

      I'll leave it to Roddy to publish (or not) how we got there. In the past, whenever something like this was aired, it got shat upon by "experts", and he and I made a pact about this years ago... so beg him and see if he'll give-in. It was really his project with me doing tweaking and verification.

      FWIW, I don't "publish" anymore for exactly that reason. I got tired of the arse-wholes laughing, jeering, and then ducking for cover when it turned-out we might be on to something. Anybody remember the "Four Horsemen Of The Apocolypse" and our KHV predictions? Nuff said.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    10. #10
      danm is offline Master Bug Photographer
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Clarkston WA
      Posts
      1,218
      OK, if I may ask, what were the parameters for the anomolous fish mortalities?

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      Roark's Avatar
      Roark is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      South of Latitude 89
      Posts
      2,668

      Talking

      Quote Originally Posted by danm
      OK, if I may ask, what were the parameters for the anomolous fish mortalities?
      Just dead fish. DUCKING!!!

      Roddy? Over to you!

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    12. #12
      danm is offline Master Bug Photographer
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2004
      Location
      Clarkston WA
      Posts
      1,218
      Quote Originally Posted by Roark
      Just dead fish. DUCKING!!!

      Roddy? Over to you!

      Roark
      C'mon, that's weak! How 'bout a DING!!!

    13. #13
      Koin-Onia is offline Koi Kowboy
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Great Smoky Mountains
      Posts
      2,833
      Roark was DHMO involved
      Quote Originally Posted by Roark
      Just dead fish. DUCKING!!!

      Roddy? Over to you!

      Roark
      The Great Smoky Mountains Koi Club

    14. #14
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
      is Busy!
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Charleston, WV, USA
      Posts
      3,458
      The three day dependable biofilter cycle used buttermilk as a key ingredient, sugar as a carbon source, baking soda for a significant alkalinity level, and an ammonia source such as household ammonia. Buttermilk contains the key stuff the biochemist said would do the job of stimulating biofilm growth. However, as Roark says, when we cycled a filter that way, and left the water in the pond, the fish dependably died in only a few hours from all the "bad" biobugs that combination grew in addition to the "good biofiltration" growth. We found if we cycled the filter with the buttermilk, sugar, baking soda, and household ammonia, then did a 100% water change, everything was okay.

      That seemed too much trouble to me, and too likely to kill fish when folks did not understand the need for the 100% water change before adding fish. So I did more test work to develop the jump start combination with better filtration design, baking soda, koi clay, Epsom salt, and calcium chloride. This combination needs no water exchange before adding fish, at least not in my hands! Some of these additives are highly dependent on your source water characteristics, meaning the Epsom salt, calcium chloride, and baking soda. The filter design details are extremely important, I have worked on those details for many years using cheap everyday materials. A key ingredient in the biofilter design for fast filter cycling is having much of the filtration media in the air rather than submerged under water. And lava rock does cycle faster, probably because it has more surface area per unit volume, and probably because the lava rock carries with it key trace minerals that speed up biofilm development.

      Like Roark says, the debate with the "it can't happen" crowd does get tiresome.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    15. #15
      Koin-Onia is offline Koi Kowboy
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Great Smoky Mountains
      Posts
      2,833
      This is getting interesting


      I can tell you that I had a filter that I could not get to cycle. Light to medium fish load and had ammonia and nitrite issues I was using cloram-x to keep the levels down I switch to a product called serenity and this filter lit up like the fourth of July. I have been over feeding a little just to see if it will keep up and it is. I am going to use this stuff.
      The Great Smoky Mountains Koi Club

    16. #16
      Lee B's Avatar
      Lee B is offline Supporting Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Land O' Lakes, FL
      Posts
      12,700
      Roddy, you adjust the calcium chloride, epsom salts, and baking soda to accommodate your water supply. What target ranges are you trying to achieve?

      Sheb, what's this "Serenity"??

      Lee

    17. #17
      MCA is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      Atlanta
      Posts
      2,465
      Roark and Roddy,


      I trust at least one of you will write up the procedure and get it published in NI or KOIUSA or Koi-Bito ....etc.

      After all, if this works as described, the entire worldwide koi hobby could benefit.
      MCA
      Too much sanity may be madness and maddest of all is to see life as it is and not as it should be.



    18. #18
      Roark's Avatar
      Roark is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      South of Latitude 89
      Posts
      2,668
      Ah... the truth comes out.

      Roddy sorta low-balled it with false chemical modesty. The basic ingredients for the final tests were actually not something you'd find at the grocery store. (Lactic acid for example). And on occasion we'd brew "something" which killed fish even after a water change.

      One of the suggestions made by Roddy's microbiologist was that we weren't brewing something akin to classic aquatic nitrifiers, but rather something "else" that produced similar results. I have a gut feeling he was right. The visible biofilm which quickly appeared from the "cocktail", also seemed to undergo a change after Week #2 after the fish had been added. The ammonia levels never spiked, but there was a change in color, texture, and thickness... as if the film was being modified or replaced by a new species.

      Dunno. We eventually went in a different direction. But we did make a bunch of smelly messes and had lots of fun.

      Roark
      You're just jealous because The Voices only talk to me....
      Copyright (c) 2005-2008 Roark. All Rights Reserved


    19. #19
      KoiCop's Avatar
      KoiCop is offline Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Costa Mesa, CA
      Posts
      736

      JPR posted his "reply" . . .

      over on the NI BB.

      Seems a strange way to conduct a debate -- with the participants located in two separate locations? Don

    20. #20
      DarleneD's Avatar
      DarleneD is offline Supporting Member
      is crocheting
       
      Feeling:
      Meh
       
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      Tampa FL
      Posts
      13,182
      Quote Originally Posted by KoiCop
      over on the NI BB.

      Seems a strange way to conduct a debate -- with the participants located in two separate locations? Don

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 13 123411 ... LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •