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    Thread: Nitrite spike

    1. #1
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Nitrite spike

      Hi -

      I have a question related to my recent shower install. My shower has been up and running for 2.5 weeks now. In the last several days my nitrite has really spiked - it was up over 2.0 ppm. I did a water change to reduce down - and i'll do another in 24 hours ...

      So here's my question. Why the sudden spike? Prior to the last several days my other filtration had been handling the bio load.

      Nothing has changed about my feeding in the last three weeks - been feeding 3x / day for several weeks now (water temps between 60 - 70 degrees already). No measurable nitrites until the last several days - presumably other filtration surfaces in the pond were providing enough bio-flitration ...

      So I'm kinda lost .. is it just the additional surface area of the shower mid-way through the cycle? If that's the case - where is the surplus "food" coming from for the Nitrosoma's that are causing me to register high nitrites?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

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    2. #2
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      anyone have a thought?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    3. #3
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      I'm putting this out there to see what others think of the theory...

      maybe the bio bugs are finding the new showers a more hospitable place and are transitioning over to the unestablished media in the showers?

      A couple of questions; what components were in your original filtration and was the media you used in the showers new?

      I am following this with interest as I currently have a moving bed filter and am planning on adding showers this season.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    4. #4
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Perhaps when you put new surfaces into your established biofiltration, where the ammonia eating and nitrite eating bacteria have previously established a balance, the faster growing ammonia eaters are now colonizing the new surfaces and out competing the ammonia eaters remaining on the old surfaces. The nitrite eaters on the old surfaces may not have the same intimate connection to the ammonia eaters on the new surfaces and since it takes longer for the nitrite eaters to establish you could see a nitrite spike.

    5. #5
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      I'm putting this out there to see what others think of the theory...

      maybe the bio bugs are finding the new showers a more hospitable place and are transitioning over to the unestablished media in the showers?

      A couple of questions; what components were in your original filtration and was the media you used in the showers new?

      I am following this with interest as I currently have a moving bed filter and am planning on adding showers this season.
      Hi Marilyn -

      Prior to the shower my filtration was a large bead filter and whatever forms on my waterfall - which is actually quite large - nearly 8 foot by 4 foot moss rock surface. Yes, yes, yes, I realize the religious arguments around bead filters and bio filtration - but the point is - it *was* providing what I needed for my small fish load

      The media in the shower is new - 10 cubic feet of lava rock.

      Your thoughts on bio bugs transitioning over - interesting perspective - although - I guess - path of least resistance would be to stay put, right?

      I've been thinking about it all night and the way I'm kind of leaning is that adding media is adding media - you're always going to get new bacteria growth and because I added 10 cubic feet of lava rock - I just added so much NEW surface area relative to what was there that I'm seeing the nitrate spike. IE: Let's say I had 20 cubic feet of media with similar bio capacity as lava rock already in the system - perhaps I would see no notable nitrate spike - in other words, I'm suggesting it's a ratio of new bio media to total bio media in my system ...

      I dunno - just a thought.

      - Jonathan
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    6. #6
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Hi Jonathan,

      Path of least resistance, I like that. It's purely a guess but I bet the bio bugs are liking the home in the showers better, all that air.

      As I mentioned, I have a moving bed filter but I also have a bead filter. What I have seen with my system is that there is considerable bio film on the moving bed media. It has a nice aged look. The bead filter media is almost as white as when I got it a little over a year ago. That's fine as it is there for mechanical filtration.

      Like I said, my theory is basically a guess. I'm still following this to see what others have to say.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    7. #7
      LilHoover's Avatar
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      What is the gph of the shower and gallons of your pond?

      Is 3x feedings per day a lot for temps below 70F?

    8. #8
      Graham's Avatar
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      Nitrifying bacteria don't move around, they are a sessile creature and bond onto the media and every surface within the pond. The whole bio-film...nitrifiers, fungi, alga etc, forms a matrix and once established are hard to remove. They don't pack up and move when conditions are not correct....they die out.

      The next thing is that the resident population of fish produce X amount of NH3 based on protein levels of the food and the amount fed. Just because more media is added doesn't mean that you'll get a ''cycle '' kicking into gear. If the established media was handling the NH3 produced then it should still handle it.

      G

    9. #9
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      Interesting and makes me feel better about the proposed shower addition for my pond.

      Jonathan, did you shut down your filtration while adding the showers?
      That could cause a potential die off.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    10. #10
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Interesting and makes me feel better about the proposed shower addition for my pond.

      Jonathan, did you shut down your filtration while adding the showers?
      That could cause a potential die off.
      A few answers:

      1. water temps now are in the 80's, so 3x feedings is fine.

      2. I actually took great pains not to shut down the filtration. Less than 2 hours of total downtime.

      3. What Graham is saying is kinda what I understood and why I'm struggling to explain the increase ...

      grmph ...
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

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    11. #11
      davidjensen's Avatar
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      Has your PH GH and KH changed in the last few weeks? A PH crash could cause this as well as a low KH.
      Need more Koi

    12. #12
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by davidjensen View Post
      Has your PH GH and KH changed in the last few weeks? A PH crash could cause this as well as a low KH.
      Good thought, but nope I thought of that -

      pH: 8.5 (normal for me)
      KH: 120 - 125 (normal for me)

      The nitrites continue to rise - something is colonizing and drastically out-populating my bio filtration.
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    13. #13
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
      Roddy Conrad is offline The Koiphen Chemist
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      If this is a conventional lava rock shower filter, a nitrite spike is expected even in a mature system. That is because the pathway for the lava rock shower filter to get rid of nitrAtes is to first convert the nitrAte back to nitrIte, then from nitrIte back to nitrogen gas.

      Of course it could also be a test interference since there are a variety of things that test as nitrite, notably most amines. But my bet is on the nitrAte conversion process going through nitrITe to get rid of nitrAte.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    14. #14
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      If this is a conventional lava rock shower filter, a nitrite spike is expected even in a mature system. That is because the pathway for the lava rock shower filter to get rid of nitrAtes is to first convert the nitrAte back to nitrIte, then from nitrIte back to nitrogen gas.
      Woah - reallllllly? This is not what I expected to hear - although I certainly trust your understanding of the chemical processes at work.

      So - if there's no ammonia in the pond water (or insufficient to be used to colonize), you're saying that the shower filter uses the NITRATES to create NITRITES to feed the growth of nitrosomas? Do I understand?

      Marilyn - looks like we have an answer!
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    15. #15
      Marilyn's Avatar
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      Good because watching you go through this had me looking the showers I'm going to install and wonder why I was messing with a good thing so far.

      Thank you Roddy.

      Still learning as I go but y'all can call me Marilyn

    16. #16
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      The shower filter has to go through nitrIte to get rid of the excess nitrAtes. So if you had been monitoring nitrAtes, you should have seen nitrAtes start dropping as the nitrIte spike appeared.

      This makes excellent scientific sense and agrees with most of the published research papers on the various effects.

      It also agrees with a lot of my own test data.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    17. #17
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Marilyn View Post
      Good because watching you go through this had me looking the showers I'm going to install and wonder why I was messing with a good thing so far.

      Thank you Roddy.
      I was thinking along similar lines - although from what I know of your current filtration - it's much more robust than what I had prior to the shower. (still is more robust - but you get the point.)
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    18. #18
      berkokid is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      The shower filter has to go through nitrIte to get rid of the excess nitrAtes. So if you had been monitoring nitrAtes, you should have seen nitrAtes start dropping as the nitrIte spike appeared.

      This makes excellent scientific sense and agrees with most of the published research papers on the various effects.

      It also agrees with a lot of my own test data.
      This has been very useful information for me. One last question on it - is there a name for the bacteria that actually do the processing of nitrates to nitrites?
      - Jonathan
      - aka "Berko"

    19. #19
      Graham's Avatar
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      Roddy this system has a well established bio on it. The TT is 2 1/2 weeks old...there would be no reason for denitrification to take place on something this new. There's something else going on.

      G

    20. #20
      Rob Forbis is offline Senior Member
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      Roddy, Please cite one of the scientific papers you to which you refer (I’ll cite 2 to the contrary). I know of no evidence that out gassing of ammonia and or nitrogen in a Bakki tower in a koi pond is a reality. The science that I have seen, such as: journal.kcsnet.or.kr/main/j_search/j_download.htm?code=B080307 would seem to say that it doesn’t happen at koi pond temperatures, pH and concentrations. The remaining recourse is to appeal to “turbulence” I just haven’t seen the math, so if you could direct me to it I would find it most interesting. The bacteria (remember Novak?) that process nitrAte to nitrIte are anaerobic, they don’t much care for Bakki Towers.

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