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    Thread: Hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate overdose comments

    1. #1
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate overdose comments

      It is Spring and the ponding main algae season is upon us.

      A friend of mine overdosed a fish pond with hydrogen peroxide in the form of Baquacil oxidizer and asked me to write about it.

      Please be aware overdosing is not a good thing, particularly in a pond that is relatively clean with nothing in it to consume the hydrogen peroxide.




      Baquacil Oxidizer is 27% strength hydrogen peroxide, useful for algae control when carefully dosed.

      The aquatic toxicity literature reports the 24 hour LC50 (Lethal Concentration when 50% of the fish die) of active pure hydrogen peroxide is 100 ppm. The 96 hour (4 day) LC50 is reported to be 22 ppm, the 2 hour LC 50 is reported to be typically 500 ppm.

      I have actually dosed ponds full of algae with doses of hydrogen peroxide at 100 ppm actice concentrations many times and not seen any fish health problems as a result. However, when some of my friends have dosed new ponds or squeaky clean ponds with that dose, and there was nothing to consume the hydrogen peroxide, usually all the fish died in one to two days as the literature reports.

      So what is a dose that will kill fish in a squeaky clean pond, you will surely ask.

      Let's calculate that for an arbitrary 1000 gallons, then you can ratio that to your pond's volume.

      1000 gallons times 8.3 pound per gallons gives 8300 pounds of water.

      8300 pounds of water times .000022 to get 22 ppm (4 day toxicity limit) is then a pure hydrogen peroxide dose of 0.18 pounds. If the hydrogen peroxide comes as 27% strength as Baquacil Oxidizer, then 0.18 pounds divided by 0.27 = .66 pounds or .08 gallon or 1.2 cups. So to guarantee half the fish die in a squeaky clean pond a dose of 1.2 cups of 27% hydrogen peroxide per 1000 gallons could do it if the hydrogen peroxide last 4 days. If 3 quarts of 27% hydrogen peroxide is added to 4000 gallons, for example, to a squeaky clean pond, the dose is 48 ppm, half the 24 hour LC50 but twice the 4 day LC50, so some but not all of the fish are likely to die in a day or two. But if that same pond has a bunch of algae, then the hydrogen peroxide will all be consumed in a few hours and all will be well.

      The case in point this week was indeed a charge of 3/4 of a gallon of Baquacil Oxidizer into a 4000 gallon pond where the algae was not bad enough to consume all the Baquacil, and many of the fish in the pond died in a few days.
      If the fish are dying from a hydrogen peroxide overdose, a 90% water change is suggested to cut the hydrogen peroxide concentration a factor of 10. This presumes enough dechlor is on hand for the water exchange, ir not, an agent for reacting away the hydrogen peroxide is required.


      The obvious best destruction agent for hydrogen peroxide is PP or potassium permanganate. If there is active hydrogen peroxide, the PP will be instantly consumed and will not turn the water purple or pink, so you will know when you are done destroying the hydrogen peroxide if you see purple or pink color that lasts a few minutes in the pond. Then add any dechlor to destroy any remaining PP when the pink or purple is seen. Then fish will stop dying.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    2. #2
      CHICHI's Avatar
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      Hi Roddy ..

      That is a very Alarming Story but I appreciate your dislosing this ..

      Will Sodium Thio neutralise H202 also ? I`ve never used it for Algae Control because we have alternative products over here !

    3. #3
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      Very helpful, thank you. Since the thread title included sodium percarbonate, is the dosing regimen the same for that as for the H2O2?
      Mary

    4. #4
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Sodium percarbonate hydrolyzes to produce hydrogen peroxide and sodium carbonate. The hydrolysis rate in water is pretty fast.

      From the molecular weight ratio of hydrogen peroxide to sodium percarbonate, one pound of sodium percarbonate produces 0.36 pounds of hydrogen peroxide.

      If a pound of pure sodium percarbonate is added to 1000 gallons of pond water, and nothing reacts with the hydrogen peroxide, the expected active hydrogen peroxide concentration is 44 ppm, which is half the 24 hour LC50 but double the 96 hour (4 day) LC50. So if you add a pound of sodium percarbonate per 1000 gallons of water, a typical dose for a heavily laden algae ridden pond, the algae will consume the hydrogen peroxide and all is well. But add the same dose to a clean pond and you expect all the fish to die about the second or third day.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    5. #5
      Sonny's Avatar
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      Last week I treated my pond with Baquacil to try and get the string algae under control. Four treatments at 100 ppm over four consequetive days. It did a pretty good job but I am left wondering... if 100 ppm will kill 50% of the fish in 24 hours will the same dosage harm your fish over a shorter period of time?

    6. #6
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      The 2 hour LC50 is 500 ppm for most fish types. So if the algae consumes the hydrogen peroxide or sodium percarbonate charge in two hours, it is very unlikely any significant damage is done to the fish.

      In several studies of the use of hydrogen peroxide to kill fish parasites, a dose of 1000 ppm was shown to be effective and harmless to the fish since in intensive fish culture, the lifetime of the hydrogen peroxide is so short in intensive fish culture waters that even a 1000 ppm dose did not harm any of the fish in those studies, and the parasites did die.

      Hydrogen peroxide is one of the "less toxic" chemicals we use for various ponding purposes, but if the chemical is going to be used, a frank and informative discussion of the dangers of the use of each chemical needs to be understood to prevent problems with the use.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    7. #7
      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      How does the pp/H2O2 mess with the pH, either together, or separately?


      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."






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    8. #8
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      Roddy, I have a 1600 gallon pond with goldfish. Right now it is relatively clean (just cleared up from an algae bloom), but the string algae is starting to grow. I pulled a small amount out yesterday, but can see on the bottom where it is starting to grow. Can I use Bacquacil to stop the growth of the string algae, or do I need to let it get growing good before I dose it? Also, what dosage would you suggest for my size of pond? Thanks.

      Donna

    9. #9
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by nmtsaki View Post
      How does the pp/H2O2 mess with the pH, either together, or separately?
      If only hydrogen peroxide and/or potassium permanganate are used, no effect should occur on pH value of the pond water.

      If sodium percarbonate is used as the hydrogen peroxide source, the pH is likely to increase to the 9 to 10 range from the sodium carbonate formed when sodium percarbonate hydrolyzes.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    10. #10
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by clerky96 View Post
      Roddy, I have a 1600 gallon pond with goldfish. Right now it is relatively clean (just cleared up from an algae bloom), but the string algae is starting to grow. I pulled a small amount out yesterday, but can see on the bottom where it is starting to grow. Can I use Bacquacil to stop the growth of the string algae, or do I need to let it get growing good before I dose it? Also, what dosage would you suggest for my size of pond? Thanks.

      Donna

      When using hydrogen peroxide in ponds to control mild string algae growth, I use a dose rate of the 27% Baquacil oxidizer of 50 ml to 100 ml per 1000 gallons pond water every few days. This is a conservative relatively safe dose that does not put fish health at risk. If the pond is already heavy with slime algae, the dose gets higher pretty fast to get control of the algae, or the dose frequency is several times per day instead of every few days.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    11. #11
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      My neighbor a new member of koiphen dose her 2700 gallon pond 2 quarts of Hydrogen Peroxide OTC 3% on thursday the 23rd following

      http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94730


      yesterday one fish jumped out of pond , this morning 5 were dead and she's nursing 2 that seem in shock could this be connected
      Click for Saint Thomas, Pennsylvania Forecast

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      When using hydrogen peroxide in ponds to control mild string algae growth, I use a dose rate of the 27% Baquacil oxidizer of 50 ml to 100 ml per 1000 gallons pond water every few days. This is a conservative relatively safe dose that does not put fish health at risk. If the pond is already heavy with slime algae, the dose gets higher pretty fast to get control of the algae, or the dose frequency is several times per day instead of every few days.
      Roddy,

      Is there some way to quantify the level of string algae so people can determine when to use hydrogen peroxide at 100 ppm? It seems like 'mild' and 'heavy' leave too much to interpretation.

    13. #13
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      bump.

      I would like to know Jim's question above. Just about to add some hydrogen peroxide to my pond and wondering my level of string algae. Thx!

      Wayne

    14. #14
      koi kichi is offline Senior Member
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      Because I am not good at math let me ask a question. What would be safe to use in a fairly clean pond 12,000 gallons. I have read that it works great for flukes.

    15. #15
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      The studies to kill parasites with hydrogen peroxide typically used 100 ppm, which in a really clean pond may kill the fish in a day or so.

      The relative safe dose for a 12,000 gallons pond for Baquacil oxidizer would be a pint to a quart of the 27% hydrogen peroxide, which would be only 3 to 6 ppm active hydrogen peroxide. This will not hurt the fish in any event, and should help with algae control in a really clean pond. But it is not strong enough to kill any parasites.
      Still working at a big chemical plant full time at age 74 now. Still using potassium permanganate to regularly clean up the pond and the koi.

    16. #16
      CHICHI's Avatar
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      Is This the same Chemical Please ? It`s all I could find over here

      http://www.oasispoolproducts.co.uk/c...ine%29&type=fp

    17. #17
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      bump
      My opinions in ER and on this forum are mine only. Use my advice at your own discretion.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."


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