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Thread: the 300,000 gal. mud pond challenge

  1. #41
    Bindi's Avatar
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    It looks great!
    The reason why it has filled now may have something to do with the frost line depth in your soil more than the leak being fixed but I sure hope that come Spring and Summer that your problem is solved!
    I have no experience here with snow or even frost. It's 43c (109f) here today and an average Winter day is around 16c (60.8f).
    It's a beautiful pond.

  2. #42
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    Bindi, you're making me long for warmer climes -- lol. Very interesting, once again, about the frost line. for sure i didn't do much to alter conditions in there except run the bubbler for a week, but still, i'm glad to see it full. it has such a pretty aspect and shape. could only be improved by having lotsa little hariwakes! i have a feeling that next year this pond will be the site of more drama. but it very holiday card right now!



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    Cool thread. I''ll be checking back strictly out of interest, not cuz I am ever likely to have a place where I could even entertain the thought of a mud pond but I can still dream can't I?
    Hugs & Fishes ~ Julie

  4. #44
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    julie -- ya' never know.



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
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  5. #45
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    Just thought I'd check in to see how the Pond was doin in this nasty weather. Probably freezing up pretty good by now huh? Given its still holding some water.


    The first step towards getting somewhere, is to decide you are not going to stay where you are.

  6. #46
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    State of the challenge!

    Hi everyone.
    Here's the winter summary of the lower (leaking) pond.
    re: Bindi's suggestion, I got one aerator into the pond in December. Her point was to stir up the bentonite, keep it in suspension so that it may plug up the leak (s). As the inflow/brook froze over, the water in the pond receded. Ice formed on what water there was. I only got down to the pond this week to investigate.

    Spring summary:
    The pond was holding about 3 feet of water in the 12 foot depth section. The bubbler was still bubbling. The inflow was partially clogged.

    See the rate of inflow and water level in the first photos taken 3/14/10

    The steeper sides of the pond caved off, another reason to have a slope on your sidewalls. Because of the sides, peeling off, I figure we've got a good bentonite floor! (ahh. a silver lining) The close-up of the sides shows ice, not rocks, imbedded in the walls.

    What you're looking at:
    The pond is shaped like a footprint, 130 feet long, average 35 feet across, toe 12 feet deep, heel eight feet deep.

    Toe points north. Heel points south.
    The house in the background is southeast uphill from the pond.
    1. looking toward the heel
    2. uphill to the inflow pipe and barn -- east
    3. close-up of the west side wall.
    4. looking at the toe
    5. looking from heel toward the toe

    On to the photos.
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    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
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  7. #47
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    The Challenge, cont'd.

    Over the last three days, I unblocked the inflow from the brook. The last pictures were taken this morning.
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    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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  8. #48
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    Last on the pond for two weeks.

    Here's the plan for the next two weeks.
    We are putting in the second aerator so that we have one in the toe, one in the heel. Day by day, we'll add in the last 800 lbs. of bentonite. We will adjust the outflow so that the clay doesn't go out to the brook.

    And then, at the end of the month, i'll let you all know how it's going.
    Happy to hear your thoughts and suggestions.
    Take care, everyone!



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

    If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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  9. #49
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    Good luck, I almost know how you feel when we were diggind our mud pond we came upon a shale area and although it was dug out and clay was replaced in that area I did'nt feel good about it until the pond filled and held.
    Once again good luck, you deserve to win after all that.

  10. #50
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    Thanks, expat. wish i could see the shale. :sigh: it's just a mystery.



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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  11. #51
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    i just saw your post and remembered this place has a used otterbine commercial aerator for sale for 200.00. it might be worth contacting them if you don't have them already. heres the post on craigslist. http://philadelphia.craigslist.org/grd/1641067920.html
    hope this helps.
    ben

  12. #52
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    That will be a tuff pond to sein if you decide to remove your koi. The sides are to steep, sure hope you don't fall in, maybe put a ladder in for a emergency just in case. Look at pictures of Japan mud ponds, angle is not steep at all. 12 ft, you must be planning on growing some whales.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post
    Last on the pond for two weeks.

    Here's the plan for the next two weeks.
    We are putting in the second aerator so that we have one in the toe, one in the heel. Day by day, we'll add in the last 800 lbs. of bentonite. We will adjust the outflow so that the clay doesn't go out to the brook.

    And then, at the end of the month, i'll let you all know how it's going.
    Happy to hear your thoughts and suggestions.
    Take care, everyone!
    Look Forward to the Updates Max and Hope the Dreaded Leak has been resolved must be frustrating in the extreme

  14. #54
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    ben, thanks for thinking of me for this. it's got to be picked up in mid pa. very far from me. i'll be looking for that otterbine elsewhere.

    dan, i was saying to the dozer man, make em steep! it was heron reaction. we know about the ladder failsafe. and how. i have fallen in and had to garfield myself to the side, pull myself up, hoping that i wasn't going to die in that frick'n' pond. the ladder is there now that my handyman, fred, is down there working on it, and we will put some kind of permanent fixture there. if it ever holds water!

    any thoughts on that? have you seen this thread from the beginning.
    also, dan while i have you, have you seen the ki-shusui project thread. any thoughts about the babies?

    signing off from nyc.
    y'all.



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

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  15. #55
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    p.s.
    chichi, thanks for the will be posting again soon.
    dan, the seining is going to be easier than it looks.
    i have a bottom drain and a remote gate valve on land.
    should the pond ever fill, and i need to seine, open the gate valve until the water is down to a few feet, then the fish will all be in the deep section of the pond in two feet of water. should be easier than normal seining. water fills in two -three days.
    of course slogging through 3 feet of bentonite should be a trip.



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

    If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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    K-POTY 2013

  16. #56
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    of course slogging through 3 feet of bentonite should be a trip.
    You better have someone standing by cause with a long pole to reach you. It will be several years of water pressure to pack mud down if it ever does to be able to walk thru 3 ft of bentonite, you will get your feet stuck and will not be able to pull your legs out, make sure you have cell phone with you in case you have to dial 911. In Japan mud ponds are dry out and pack down with machine to be able to walk the ponds. In fry ponds someone has to walk the ponds several times a week to break up the gas buildup in the mud or the fry will die. Large koi will do that looking for earthworms but with fry it is a must to walk the ponds. For herons you need a dog to patrol the area or enclose entire area. For eagles and osprey hawks you string along 80 pound fishing line across the pond on poles.

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  17. #57
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    Question, do you have to drain the pond to put in the benidite? Is it safe to put it in with koi in the pond?

  18. #58
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    dan, thanks for the reality check. i don't think walking the pond is going to be possible, but i'm wondering if flow-through water will be a good alternate position. that and putting adult fish in with the fry. frankly, beyond thinking if i put this variety with this variety will i get this third variety, i didn't think ahead to hundreds of thousands of fry, not for a second.

    as for the heron/dog thing, i've got six cats and am unable to add a dog to the mix. that freakin' bird drives me crazy. right now i have an electric fence around the lake. very attractive, let me tell you.

    the ladder is down there already.

    thanks for your comments!

    eric,
    i don't know the best way to deal with bentonite. my pond was already wet but empty when i put in the first 2000 lbs of it. there were several recommended ways. one had to do with rototilling, so obviously, that would be a dry method. we didn't do that. we dumped the clay in around the edges as the water filled.

    we are currently broadcasting the clay across the surface which is another recommended method.

    will let you all know how it goes after we let the water and bentonite bubble for a few weeks.



    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

    If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koigrl View Post

    eric,
    i don't know the best way to deal with bentonite. my pond was already wet but empty when i put in the first 2000 lbs of it. there were several recommended ways. one had to do with rototilling, so obviously, that would be a dry method. we didn't do that. we dumped the clay in around the edges as the water filled.

    we are currently broadcasting the clay across the surface which is another recommended method.

    will let you all know how it goes after we let the water and bentonite bubble for a few weeks.
    Well, we are trying to get the benitite in tomorrow. Koi are coming sunday!!


    -Eric

  20. #60
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    Update.

    Hi, Mudponders:
    I have put off posting new pictures, because it is fill the pond, watch it drain, repeat -- for the last two months.

    In between the fill/drain cycles, there has been much followed by

    At the top of one of the cycles, Steve (pond contractor) came over and found a rocky place under the inflow pipe that wasn't covered with clay. He poured in a little milk to see if we could see any whirlpooling anywhere. We could not. You'll see him poking around and jamming the bentonite around the rocks.

    A week later, Fred came over and cemented all around that place in the pond as well as filling the couple of sinkholes about 8-10" across that opened up in the bottom. this kind of confirms the vein of shale suspected as the reason for the leak, but no vein was found.

    The garbage can with cinder block visible in some pictures was my attempt to cover the outflow to be absolutely sure we were not losing water through the plumbing.

    We were not.

    The pond refilled from the brook. The brook slows as the snow/rain runoff decreases. And as the brook slowed, the inflow could not keep up with the outflow, and the pond drained.

    I contacted a company called "cetco" (i think) and they have a product called "akwaseal."

    This is a sandwich-type liner: plastic on the bottom, bentonite in the middle, and some kind of fiber on top. I would say more about it, but the closest installer was quite far away and in the end, he and steve both thought the sides of the pond were too steep to hold the liner.

    A word on the steep side of the pond.
    This would be the side of the pond at the most down-hill point. The berm is pretty narrow, about the width of the excavator.

    Here is the latest plan.

    We think the leak is in the bottom of the pond, not seeping out the sides. We're looking now for clay to bring in by the truckload.
    Hope to mix the clay, if need be, with the remaining bentonite, then fill in the bottom of the pond several feet. So, we'll raise the 12' deep to 8 or 10' deep.

    I think lining the bottom before filling in the new soil would be a good idea and thanks to folks who posted about recyled billboards and other liners, i'll be checking into this.

    for now, the baby fish are going to live with the grown-ups in the lake (if you haven't seen the "ki shusui project with a twist" and want to see the breeding saga, there is a link under my siggy. )

    i think the pond repair is going to be a summer project before we get this done, but i'm hoping that i'll have a growout pond this time next year.

    and now, some depressing pictures.
    the last four, with the crabapples in bloom, were taken on april 28. The pond has emptied since then.

    thanks all for your support!
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    Ki Shusui Project : 300k Challenge : 500k Build : Flock Spawn Jamboree : Our Ki Midori Champions




    Ten minute video of Russ Peters sexing our future ki shusui oyagoi. : http://youtu.be/AhROs1cjC18

    Updated for the 2016 Harvest: What is "ki shusui?" Short version http://www.kishusui.com

    Twelve seconds that are the entire point of the last seven years!
    https://youtu.be/zNqTJgM3lpY

    If you're reading this, you're on Team Ki.
    Kichi loves company. Max


    K-POTY 2013

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